soteriological
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    I rarely meet a word that is completely unfamiliar, even if I can't always remember exactly what it means (ontological...).

    But Raymond E Brown, "The Death of the Messiah", page 1002 has done it. Never ever seen that word before. Very interesting book, recommended to all, and for the most part clear and understandable. (thanks to CGW for first recommending it, been reading for a couple of months now, off and on). Edit: a quick search on googlerulestheworld shows that maybe it's just me, others have heard the word before.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    soter = "savior" (Gk.) therefore, "soteriological" = "theology of Christ as savior"
  • Σωτήρ
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    How are we saved? What is salvation? These are soteriological concerns.

    For the Christian, as chonak mentions, how are we saved by/in Jesus Christ?

    Liturgical music theory is not unrelated to soteriological questions. Catholics have a particularly rich theory of salvation, in which we are not only designated as acceptable by God, but are truly made good by God, in such a way that in some real sense we truly merit the goods of heaven, which at the same time are merited by Christ's saving actions.

    If we are to truly become good, what should the influence of our sacred music be? This is the question that haunts me
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Blaise
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    "Liturgical music theory is not unrelated to soteriological questions."

    This is very interesting, because it takes us away from a mere rubrical approach of sacred music and enables us to reflect on sacred music from the vantage point of sacramental theology. What role does sacred music have in the sanctification of the faithful (SC 112)? How should we understand active participation in sacred music?

    Exploring the soteriological dimensions of sacred music may be instrumental in appreciating the spiritual depths of sacred song. It may help us to come up with a more eloquent answer to the question "Why should we sing the propers?" apart from "It's in the liturgical books".
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    On the other hand, we should avoid a treatment of texts as if they were magical. Fortunately, and interestingly, that works both ways. Sentimental, shall we say, texts with which people have deep liminal associations are not magical, either (though they may treat them that way). I think the most vital (in the sense of liveliness - and loveliness...) foundation for promoting scriptural texts is that: in Scripture we encounter the real presence of the Jesus - the Word made flesh. (Yes, it's a real presence. Not the presence par excellence as in the Most Blessed Sacrament, but one of a few real presences of Jesus in liturgical prayer.) So, the Church has promoted that encounter since its earliest age, and it is on that basis that we promote it. The promotion is not a cudgel - unless we do it in the wrong way.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    How beautiful! Because sacred music contains the Word of God, singing the proper chants is an encounter with the Logos, Christ our Lord, who is really present in these chants.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I agree. And, the question also concerns the music that heightens the communicative words. What should the music be?
    Thanked by 2Liam CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Kathy

    If I may: Along the lines of avoiding cudgels: What music supports and highlights the Word without distracting unduly from the Word? What music avoids the problem of confusing the finger with the Sun?

    This is a rhetoric of meekness, not of triumphalism. It is the rhetoric of a whisper rather than a cudgel. (So long as it's not treating like a magical parlor trick in turn, but actually is trying to open minds and hearts rather than hammer them with The Only Correct Answer.)

  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    Meekness and whisper, yes. Sacred music has, in a way, an incarnational character: it is the Word which takes its dwelling place in the melody, uttered by our human voice. Sacred song is therefore, much like the Virgin Mary, a humble servant of the Lord.

    Is this correct: in sacred music Christ descends to be present in our earthly lives and reveal himself to us, so we, by means of partaking in the same music, may ascend to the divine realm.
    Thanked by 1Blaise
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Liam,

    I would ask you to reflect that you are the only person on this thread who is even suggesting the use of force. Where is this coming from?
    Thanked by 2Liam CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Liam

    I was talking more generally, not only limited to this thread. My regrets.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Not at all, just would like to explore this issue as well as possible. For me it's the hot topic.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    And thanks to William for the truly compelling notions that have surfaced. I, too, am not quite "getting" Liam's concern of, what, coercian (?), or how that applies in our realm. And Kathy, you could help me out by providing a sort of scenario that demonstrates the "hot topic" aspect, thanks. C
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Charles,

    If people are helped to be made truly good by sacred music, then the choices we as liturgical musicians are of literally eternal importance. They are life and death--Life and Death--decisions.
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Well I must confess (and did @CCW) that I'm coming around more and more to the dialectic that Peter K consistently advances. The rub, as ever, are the real world politics of parish leadership.
    Hanging in there for now! Thanks.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    I am not a theologian, a philosopher, or a DMA in Sacred Music, but I have always believed that everything we do should do in Church should be done with a view towards the glorification of God and also the salvation of our souls. Now, I can not pronounce on exactly how to do that.

    Another of my ramblings on Eastern traditions: In the Byzantine tradition, the Eucharistic liturgy is called the "Divine Liturgy" because it is supposed to be a participation in what is going on in heaven.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Yes. The veil is lifted and we are really there.

    At the same time, the liturgy moves us toward there, as our home. How do we help that process along?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I don't know if it will help, but I said here on a Chant Cafe post about Mary Ann's awesome children's choir, this:
    Filled with the beauty of the chant, young children have the potential to become freer moral agents, able to choose the good because of how aptly the good moral act suits the beauty of the acquired form of the music.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Hmm. Children are beautiful free moral agents, but, as the church agrees, I think, are not yet ready to 'choose' anything.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    "able to choose the good"

    I had to think about this this evening when I reflected on Luke 10: 38-42, Jesus at the home of Martha and Mary. Mary has chosen what is better, says the Lord. What did Mary do? She sat at the Lord’s feet listening to what he said. Instead of treating him as her guest, she recognised him as the host who had something to offer to her.

    Sacred music does the same: it sits at the Lord's feet and listens to what he says. The melody receives the Word faithfully, articulates and treasures it. I think all truly beautiful (liturgical) music is music that does precisely this.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Except for that word 'melody' I was about to 'thank' you smvanroode. Careful please about musical specifics. I really don't think most musicians in sacred service want 'melody' to be the pre-eminent music aspect, any more than rhythm, or harmony, or polictical correctness. In fact, probably few musicians in any field including the latest dubstep, despite the respect they may hold for melody, would want your statement as dogma.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 998
    It's my ignorance of not distinguishing correctly between specific meanings of musical idiom. But the main idea still stands: the beauty of sacred music has to do with the attentive listening to the Word.
    Thanked by 1mrcopper
  • I am loving this thread, as my mind is often occupied with the question of how we move towards heaven, and any contributions I hope to make in that area, especially through training singers in sacred music.

    As an aside, after the age of reason, children can become increasingly free to choose their own acts and can be held responsible for them. This is why they receive the sacrament of penance at an early age, and why we have children among canonized saints.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen