Lectionary discrepancies English vs Spanish
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Friends,

    For some reason, the "Seasonal" Responsorial Psalms given in the Spanish Lectionary are different than the "Seasonal" Responsorial Psalms given in the English Lectionary.

    Why is this?

    Is there anything to prevent using a "Seasonal" Advent Responsorial Psalm given in the English Lectionary (for instance, "To You O Lord I lift up my soul") in the Spanish language?

    (My head hurts just asking this question)
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    There's no reason you can't use the seasonal psalms from the Graduale Simplex in Spanish.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Dear Jeff,

    Have you checked the Order of Readings (Ordo lectionum Missæ)? That is the source book from which lectionaries are made.

    I haven’t checked in detail, but I suspect the Spanish lectionary you are checking is deviating from the Order of Readings.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Dear incantu,

    Strictly speaking, a Spanish translation of the Graduale Simplex should, I believe, need to receive the same sort of episcopal approval that By Flowing Waters has before its being used for Mass.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Is there not a Spanish language equivalent of the ICEL that would produce an official translation?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I have the "official" translation in the Spanish lectionary, but the Psalms selected are different than the English ones.
  • bjerabek
    Posts: 63
    I have found other discrepancies between the English and Spanish lectionaries. For example, yesterday, the readings provided in the leaflet worship aid that we get each week were different than the options in the lectionary for the Masses of the Dead (which is where the hispanic lectionary tells you to look for the readings for All Souls -- at least the Mexican edition that we have here). In the English lectionary, there was a section with proper readings for All Souls -- it did not tell me that I had to go to the Masses for the Dead section. And in any event, as I said, the options were different between the two.

    There also seems to be at least three different translations of the Spanish lectionary currently in circulation, and I have to say that the Mexican one, which we use most of the time in this country, is particularly bad. Every translation involves a certain amount of interpretation, but there is clearly an ideology behind the interpretation of the Mexican text that at times I think tends towards liberation theology. For example, in one reading from Romans (if memory serves) where the Greek, Latin, and current English all contrast the "flesh" against the "spirit", the Mexican translation contrasts the "egotistical disorder of the world" against the "spirit".

    So, all of that to say, if you can unlock the mystery of the Spanish lectionary, more power to you!
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    bjerabek,

    I wish you could publish something online that clearly elucidates all this
  • bjerabek
    Posts: 63
    Would that I had the leisure to endeavor such a project!
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Felipe,

    We're talking about the responsorial psalms. There is already an approved translation of all of the psalms in the Graduale Simplex, though not the SImplex itself. All one needs to do is look at the appointed psalms in the Simplex, and sing them according to the text found in the Lectionary, or a Lectionary-based psalter. The GIRM allows for this use of a seasonal psalm.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,486
    I have noticed that the current Spanish Lecionary (at least the one we use) has some psalms are different entirely than in the English Lectionary. Why this is, I have not the faintest.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 864
    Incantu,

    There IS an official translation of the first edition of the Graduale Simplex and it was granted the concordat cum originali in 1968. I used it for By Flowing Waters.

    I have begun the process of producing a Spanish version of the Graduale Simplex, in modern notation at the moment. If anyone needs something done in Spanish, let him/her contact me in as timely a manner as possible and I will see what I can do. My hope is to have it all engraved and blessed by the USCCB and published by The Liturgical Press.

    Blessings,
    Paul
    Thanked by 1tomboysuze
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Felipe: "... Order of Readings (Ordo lectionum Missæ) ... suspect the Spanish lectionary you are checking is deviating"

    Or, perhaps, the English is deviating?

    Or, is there a Psalm numbering problem (off by one, typos)?

    At the USCCB website, in the Liturgy Newsletters
    http://www.usccb.org
    (left margin) Church Life and Ministries
    (left margin) Liturgy
    (left margin) Newsletter
    I recall seeing a newsletter item that the USA would use the Mexican Lectionary
    and another newsletter item that the USA would create their own Spanish Lectionary.

    The critical thing is to locate the Latin Ordo Lectionum Missae (OLM)
    and discover whether English or Spanish or both deviate from the OLM, and why.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Okay, here are those items I mentioned in the previous post ...

    http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/pubguidelines.pdf
    (PDF page 20)(paper page 18, because of cover and blank)

    Regarding the use of Spanish, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops, at its November
    2000 meeting, authorized that in the future, translations of Sacred Scripture in Spanish language
    liturgical books for the dioceses of the United States of America be taken from the translation
    employed by the Mexican Lectionary for Mass. A Leccionario for use in the dioceses of the
    United States of America is in preparation. Publishers should consult the Secretariat of Divine
    Worship concerning various approved liturgical translations in languages other than English.


    http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/innews/2009-02.pdf
    (PDF page 3-4)(paper page 7-8, because Jan starts with page 1 and Feb starts with page 5)

    Adoption of the Leccionario for the United States
    In January 2002, the Subcommittee on Hispanics and the Liturgy discussed the creation of a Spanish-language
    Lectionary for Mass for use in the United States. The Subcommittee recommended that the USCCB
    pursue such a project, securing copyrights for the use of the readings and Psalter text from the Mexican
    and Spanish Leccionario, respectively.

    The then-Committee on the Liturgy, at their meeting in March 2002, considered the recommendation of the
    Subcommittee and approved the creation of a Leccionario for use in the dioceses of the United States,
    utilizing the translation of Sacred Scripture approved for use in the dioceses of Mexico. The translation of the
    Psalms for the American Leccionario comes from the Psalter used in the dioceses of Spain, and is
    preferred because it enjoys the characteristic of greater ease in singing than the translation approved for
    Mexico, since the Psalms are by their nature to be sung during the Liturgy. In addition, the principles of the
    Instruction Liturgiam Authenticam--issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline
    of the Sacraments in 2001 on the subject of liturgical translations--encourage collaboration in the development
    of texts among the various Conferences of Bishops withing each language group. Following discussions with
    several USCCB offices (Publishing, General Counsel, and Accounting Services) and the Episcopal Conferences
    of Mexico and Spain, the requisite copyright permissions have been secured. The USCCB will hold the copyright
    for the Leccionario used in the United States.

    During its June 2005 meeting, the then-Committee on the Liturgy approved Volume I of the Leccionario
    (Sundays and Solemnities). At this meeting, members of the Committee reviewed and approved Volumes II, III,
    and IV. Approval of the Lectionario for the dioceses of the United States requires an affirmative vote
    from two-thirds of the USCCB's Latin Rite Bishops, followed by confirmation of the Holy See. Since both the
    Leccionario used in Mexico and the Psalter used in Spain have previously been approved by the
    Congregation, a speedy recognitio is expected for the American Leccionario.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Sorry to be tardy about updating this Discussion with more recent info.

    http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/innews/July2009.pdf
    PDF page 2 (paper page 26)

    Leccionario
    Finally, the Latin Church Bishops adopted a Spanish-language Lectionary, called the
    Leccionario, for use in the dioceses of the United States; the vote was 182-1.
    Readings in the U.S. Leccionario use the Spanish translation as approved for Mexico,
    while the Psalms use the translation approved for Spain. Since both translations have
    previously received the Holy See's recognitio, a speedy confirmation is expected
    for the Leccionario.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,486
    Dose anyone know of a spanish lectionary on-line?
    The one on EWTN often does onot have repsonses for psalms.
    Any other online sources out there?
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