Introducing the Organ
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    Wow.

    Recently I took a post as full time DM out west. I quickly found myself driving a bronco with a large logo of a cowboy riding on a horse stamped onto the back of my spare tire on the back of the car. We have been enjoying the common food out here... elk... and BOY is it good! And although we live IN the mountains, I have managed to avoid playing 'sing to the mountains' since I got here... however, the congregation has gone into an epilectic seizure from the lack of oxygen which they derive from its singing.

    But here is the new phenomenom. I thought I had seen it all. The newly installed organ (about two years ago) is a three manual 88 rank Allen Digital. For 100k, this is one impressive piece of technology (yet at the same time, to us tracker buffs, the bane of our existence). So here is the mind blowing fact. This congregation is soooooo used to having just guitar for all their liturgies, that the volume of the organ is overwhelming to them. They do nothing but complain. Even when I accompany them on an 8' principal and 4' Octave! They also complain that they can't hear the choir during the congregational singing. Duh! I am reminding them that THEY are supposed to be singing during the hymns?! Now most of the people are ecstatic that they went from a completely volunteer music program to a full time DM overnight. One person came up to me told me that she had been praying to St. Cecilia for five years for something to happen with the music. (I wonder if I could ever have that kind of patience!)

    So, in light of all this, what do you all recommend to help them better understand how an organ is supposed to sound, and that the sound is supposed to envelope you during singing? I think this is a real eye opener from how far we have wandered from the standard once again. Also, I am familiar with a few documents that talk about the organ, but where are all the specific inferences concerning the use of the organ and other instruments to be found?

    Thnkx in advance.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Mix in some a capella singing if you can, with the choir singing in harmony. Also, although it's a horrendous abuse which makes me want to burn things, maybe you could make VERY VERY VERY LIMITED use of the "song leader" - say, have a cantor sing JUST audibly with a hymn or two. And then wean them off it over the course of a couple months. And the BEST way to get it to happen, although I doubt any of us can pull it off, is to reduce the hymnody to one hymn per Mass and build from there.

    Is the organ actually too loud? Many of those digital things are poorly voiced, you may want to give that some thought too.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    Modern digital organs DO have a lot a capacity for adjusting - even note by note voicing. It takes 1) a laptop computer with the appropriate software, 2) the ear of an organ voicer, and 3) willingness to spend some hours getting it right.

    Email me privately if you like. I know people who can help you get out of the organ what you desire.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I agree with Steve on the voicing issue. Call in the local tech appointed by Allen to do this, so as to avoid any warranty issues.

    When I had to do this to the digital I work with, I actually had fun. I was able to work with the "voicer" to get the thing to sound just the way I wanted it to (like an English instrument, complete with a "tuba mirabilis" to replace the ear-bleeder they had called a "festival trumpet").

    As for registration recommendations, I tend to favor building on lots of 8' tone, adding reeds and upper work from the swell division more often than the great, as the full swell (16's through mixtures) coupled to a nice beefy 8'-4' (maybe 2') great gives body to accompanying congregational singing without blowing them out.

    Between careful registration and attention to voicing issues, it's possible to bring them around to an organ sound.

    Also, I concur with Gavin on the cantor issue. They've been used to hearing a miked voice leading them, rather than an organ, so they're going to need time, and you'll need to wean them off of that kind of sound slowly.
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  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I would like to second/third/fourth the recommendation that, if it be necessary, revoicing not be done alone. If you mess it up, you're stuck with an organ which won't work and you don't know how to work. If the Allen rep messes it up, he (or someone else they can send) knows how to fix it. This is another reason I back Allen 100%: they have excellent customer service. The church where I grew up had an ooooold Allen baseball organ from the 60s. When I began to play organ, I made a bunch of noise to have it serviced, since there had been no servicing for 20 years on it. Besides fixing dead notes and revoicing it, the rep made it basically sound like the real thing!

    Of course all this is dependent on the organ not being properly voiced. All I'm saying is consider it; just because the people whining don't know what they're talking about doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Patience. Be kind and craft a response that is not condescending or patronizing. You have to stick to your guns (how'd you like that Western metaphor?) and suggest that in time they will not only get used to it, but come to love it as we do. If possible, ask your pastor to talk about the congregation's role vis a vis the choir in a homily once a year.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    thnx for all your recommendations. i did have the allen rep in this week with his computer. we beefed up the 8' prin and you are right about the ear bleeding reed on the gt. its deadly. the main problem is that the speakers were forced into a 6' x 6' space because of 'asthetic' considerations. therefore ALL the sound was being forced directly at the congregation through a very small aperature so to speak. (literally). We turned the speakers on their back so they face the ceiling. huge dif. indirect sound is so much better. also there is carpet throughout the church which then forces one to play at a higher volume since you don't have the resonance and bouncing of sound waves. its like a big living room, which, IMHO is an anti acoustical space for congregation singing and blending. you are right about the choir. they are so used to just hearing a choir that the organ seems to 'drown' everyone out. I backed off the volume about 1/2 today and it made a world of difference. i do have control over each rank via the little drawer unit under the organ. however, i am leary about touching the voicing since all the ranks are balanced against each other.

    Michael... I totally agree with you... patience, humility and charity are the true secrets to bringing this all to a good and fruitful end.

    One thing about the lack of hymn singing that plays to my advantage is that they have been so far removed from hymn singing, that i don't need to wean them off of the 4HS (four hymn sandwich). Thank God! In fact, I am going to have the choir process and sing the introit, and then the offertory and communio starting in Advent. How refreshing is that! I have Fr. Weber's setting and also Paul Ford's. I am also grateful to have two choirs. SATB and the new schola cantorum so I can start introducing the propers from the GR in, of all things, ...Latin!
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Do you also have a digital effects box? You can create the resonance you want between the instrument and speakers. Try the "Westminster Cathedral setting" on a good digital sound processor and just close your eyes (on the hymns you have memorized).
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    Hi Michael.

    Yes, I have the 'acoustic portrait'. I use the cathedral settings when appropriate (large solo organ works by Bach, Buxtehude, and I have composed a few myself) which were actually conceived with a live acoustic, but for hymn singing we use "large room 2". Because the room is like a large living room, there is no reberveration from congregational singing at all and it sounds somewhat cheesy to have a cathedral acoustic on the organ when the congregation is absolutely dead. The acoustic portrait does help to blend the sound a little, but it is still not the same as having the acoustic blend of organ and singing meshing together.

    In fact, the interplay of acoustics is something I think I took for granted having played in such wonderful spaces back East and having naturally supported acoustics. The Basilica of the Assumption of the BVM where I played for the last 25 years was designed by Latrobe, the same architect of the Capitol building in DC. It had an incredible acoustic and a wonderful organ to match. Even the small chapel of Mount de Sales Academy was a three or four story monument with a cathedral ceiling and had a small Jardine tracker.

    The art of balancing the sound in the church here has become a great distraction from the liturgy and the music itself for both the staff and the congregation. In fact, the responsibility of creating the right blend is left to each individual musician and their own volume control (whether instrument or voice.) I have told them it is a travesty. And here's the definition of that... [1 : a burlesque translation or literary or artistic imitation usually grotesquely incongruous in style, treatment, or subject matter 2 : a debased, distorted, or grossly inferior imitation] I am going to put together a well composed analytic on how to remedy the situation starting with proposing a choir loft in the rear and moving the organ and the choir there and getting the sound (speakers) up higher in the ceiling. My longer term proposal will be the installation of a real instrument and removal of the living room carpet.

    This should be a great lesson to all of us, that architecture is absolutely critical to the success of good music along with an instrument that is designed and voiced for the space and vice versa. The organ and the choir should NEVER (and I stress NEVER) be in the front of the church. Our history of developing liturgical (worship) architectures is just as critical as was the development of the liturgy itself. When we threw out the latin liturgy (the baby), we also threw out the bath water (the architecture that supports excellent liturgical music).
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Virgil Fox famously said, "the most important stop on the organ is the room."
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  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I was wondering about the level adjustment on the organ. From my experience, "toasters" are usually turned up way too loud. This is especially evident when there are a few electronic "stops" added to a pipe organ. More often than not, the electronics drown out the pipes in the tutti. A friend of mine has a big Casavant at his church, and one of their voicers came in as the Walker electronics guy was setting the levels (too loud.) He freaked out and said, "THIS IS A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT!!!!!" I tend to agree.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    well, now i am playing at 1/2 the intended 'full organ' volume. That presents a whole new set of problems. You now loose the proper level of saturation when you turn it down. it becomes thin, and the presence of the sound becomes lost or "shadowed". It's almost like the organ is speaking from another room. You feel like you are listening to the organ coming out of a stereo system. It's kinda like going to a really nice restaurant and instead of the filet mignon you are expecting, you get the rubber toy steak that is intended for your dog.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    BruceL

    It used to be common for traveling Rodgers pipe crews to invariably make the pipes WAY TOO LOUD when connected to an electronic...

    Francis....get them to have a factory voicer drop in....
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    frogman...

    Thanks. That could be an alternative but coming 2000 miles from PA may be out of the purview when 'All you need to do is turn it down, bud!' is the "easy" solution suggested by the non-musical people who are on staff. Besides, when I am playing the big Bach worx, it sounds great at full volume! I certainly don't want a governor on the gas pedal!
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,022
    One word of caution: Not all Allen distributors are equal when it comes to detailed voicing (tonal finishing) of the Renaissance series organs. There are many independent technicians, with licensed Allen software, who take much more time, and know many tricks. But you local dealer would be the first place to start.

    Indirect sound is crucial to speaker placement, no matter the age of the instrument or the technology involved.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Francis, I just skimmed the thread, so I may have missed this: do you have an antiphonal speaker array with the Allen?
    Sound modeling/digital ambiant speakers are cool, but as has been pointed out cannot mitigate the perceived problem of a few PIPs that the primary speaker array and volume levels are "too darn loud." Once we managed to install our antiphonal array, our ability to redistribute and balance registrations was dramatically noticeable to all.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    Don't you just love the fact that you are not only the liturgical police, but also the local acoustician?! My gosh! We are definitely reaping the scourges of newchurch. They threw out the liturgy, the pipe organ, the traditional architecture and what do they have to show for it? Nothing but headaches! Pretty soon they will be throwing out the Eucharist. Sorry for the rant, chaps. Had to get it off my chest.

    We just turned all the speakers on their backs. HUGE dif. It does not have an antiphonal frogman. However, I have generated a lot of steam in getting them to consider building a choir loft and moving it all to the back and up in the air. Pray, Pray, Pray! At the moment I am riding the swell shoes like I am driving a vette through a neighborhood chock full of little kids running through the streets.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Over the years I have noted that complaining about an instruments problems in a forum that is respected invariably results in a call from the factory and a factory person sent directly out at no charge to straighten things out. A list that I maintain for organists that use one type of organ is monitored heavily by other builders and if comments made mention another type of instrument that is a deficient installation or has poor voicing, strong emails have flown out from the associated corporate headquarters demanding to know where this is so that they may straighten is out at no charge.

    And distance seems not to be a problem.

    And they do not send out flunkies, but the best people.

    I remember in 1966 our organ class visiting a lovely organ by Noack in NYC. We were met there by Noack himself who was beside himself because Bruce Prince-Joseph had the organ tuner move pipes over so a 2' became a mutation, as I recall. He was beyond furious while being apologetic for his wrath in front of us at the same time.

    Some people are not in it for the money. And there is no digital organ builder that trains or even gives any training or support for teaching tonal finishing in the field beyond basic level setting. Whenever you are involved in the purchase of an organ, get in writing who voiced and finished the organ in the church that you are auditioning.

    And make sure that person is alive and willing to do the same work on your installation.

    I was subjected to wrath recently by an organ builder who uses a digital tone generation sytem from a very respected company. The installations with this equipment by itself or with pipes are always good. A recent install was not good at all, and upon checking I was told that they no longer bring in the genius behind the system to voice, but do it themselves because their voicer is better.

    He's not. And the genius is not happy because now his creation no longer sounds as it should when purchased and installed by this other company.
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