Noel's speaking for himself there.

Why should CMAA take up the cause for banning people from tuning to A=442?

How does that help the cause of Catholic Music? How does it improve music in the church and help remove "On Eagles Wings" from the Catholic hit parade?

Symphony orchestras have, over the years, raised pitch - Bernstein was just one of the conductors who liked the sound. How does that have any bearing on the role of the CMAA?

Thank you, Chonak, for emphasizing that I am speaking for myself. Is anyone else troubled by the divergence and overanalyzing of minutiae that can drive people away who merely come here to find out what propers are and to find out if they should sing them?

This entire obsession with pitch really, really can discourage people who come here to learn and discover that music is not written properly and that each note should have a sign above it that tells the singer how to "tune" the note.

If this were an important issue, all music would be published this way and when it is, I will drop my objections.

It was my impression that CMAA was here to nurture and the plants are instead getting trod under.

I would see no problem with discussing tuning threads and other appropriate places. Personally, I don't see any problem of pitch obsession. Occasionally a thread will pop up. If it takes over another thread, Chonak will split it off into another discussion where it can continue safely.

There are some discussions that I frankly don't care about. So I don't visit those threads. I'm not getting trod under. I don't care about some of the topics, so I don't visit them, and mark them as read. I don't see any problem with that...

There are some discussions that I frankly don't care about. So I don't visit those threads. I'm not getting trod under. I don't care about some of the topics, so I don't visit them, and mark them as read. I don't see any problem with that...

This.

I don't have any personal need for the info on tuning/intonation, etc - like mrcooper's comparison of different choirs and how they're minutely different at one cadence, for example. And I (sort of) get the stuff, having interned as a piano tuner, having sung in early music choirs, and performed pieces on period instruments (the wolf interval is something indeed!) ... but none of that is really relevant or interesting to what's going on with my musical life at the moment.

So I don't read the threads (or just glaze over them).

If they are relevant for me later, I'll search for them. And if I'm looking for info on propers, I'll search for that.

No need to ban certain musical discussion here, especially if they might actually help to improve an ensemble / director who finds such information helpful.

keep the information flowing

Precisely! Why stop people when there's no compelling reason to do so! i have learned so much from this forum, I see no reason to change it.

Thanks for the above observations. I'll just add one more: I've learned a great deal from this forum, both from having to argue my own ideas and from hearing other ideas. Most often, not strictly on topic.

I have wondered the same thing, canadash. My daughter's violin teacher corrected her violin A string by ear, without bothering to play his own A string. But I don't have any idea how precise he was.

that's amazing!

My take on perfect pitch.

All it is is pitch memory. One is able to 'remember' and duplicate the cycles per second by reproducing the pitch with the voice. Some are more accurate than others.

It drives ME crazy when I am trying to transpose because I am reading one note and hearing the other.

Other than that, perfect pitch does not drive me crazy. As far as tuning intervals goes, it is natural to sing pure thirds and fifths, and the higher note is the note that generally tunes to the lower note. But for a person to have vocal control and keep absolute pitch is near impossible anyway for more than a second or few. That is why a chorus creates the effect of 'chorus'. Even if the one person with 'perfect' pitch could stay on pitch, the others in the choir are not going to do so.

The subject is negligible, it really doesn't have any bearing on musicality, and putting such focus on such a small element in the whole scope of musical art is merely a distraction. I feel the same way about schools of thought when it comes to chant. The minute anyone begins saying, 'this school of thought is the right way to do it', well, what are you trying to accomplish and what is the purpose, and most important, what is the musical result that makes it so 'right'?

mrcopper

I couldn't agree with you more about the theory. In fact, it so interests me, I even built an instrument that helps us to understand those theories.

http://romancatholicsacredmusic.com/harmonicSeries/

I believe we lost a huge amount about harmony and modes to the equal temperament, and their effect on the human spirit and psyche and to the affect on moods.

look away!

watch those provocative questions Phat. One might have to split out a new discussion that is not relevant.

I will be cautious to stay on topic, but first I will quote what I said in another post about a new organ:

It all goes to our Yaweh, Jehovah, or whatever we call our redeemer God.

Catholic music must be about music of the finest quality to god of many names (gathered into one). Making music as best we can is my prayer. Making excuses to put less efforts in makes our prayers not honest/good/sincere/prayerful/honest/etc.

Maybe Phil should make a new discussion? So so sorry for being of-topic!

Well, francis, maybe ... I've tried to put the seventh harmonic into my world from time to time: it, and your pentatonic scale, don't seem right. Or I can't hear it right. Maybe I'll join a barbershop quartet and improve my sense of intonation.

btw your 'instrument' play buttons don't work in my browser (firefox on windows xp).

mrcopper

I think it all has a long load time. It might work if you wait a while.

donr

If what you claim is true, that also supports my theory because the first five notes bulit on 5ths are indeed the pentatonic scale. (Circle of 5ths starting on C = C,G,D,A,E. Rearranged in stepwise fashion you get, C,D,E,G,A)

Thanks for that Julie! Francis, that pentatonic scale is fine. It's the one your instrument derives from the harmonic series of a single note that troubles me.

If what you claim is true, that also supports my theory because the first five notes bulit on 5ths are indeed the pentatonic scale. (Circle of 5ths starting on C = C,G,D,A,E. Rearranged in stepwise fashion you get, C,D,E,G,A)

Pythagorean tuning (3:2) of the cycle of fifths giving a pentatonic CDEGA is downright ancient, but how about the fa and leading tones?

Later in history equal temperament came into being but I don't believe that was in place until the piano was born.

I believe the fretted string instruments had 12tET before keyboard instruments were commonly tuned that way in the 20th century. Note that a Chinese prince had 12tET using the twelfth root of two back in 1584.

I've played instruments tuned to the Bach hybrid 1/6th + 1/12th commaMT tuning with pleasant results. I'd like to have our organ that way, but never our pianos.

It has seemed to me that musicians in the 15th through 18th centuries made the changes they made because they considered them needed improvements. A good example would be the change from one type of tuning to another, for example, mean tone to equal. Perhaps those musicians even considered the replacement of the harpsichord by the piano a very good thing. Are we living in the only musical age where musicians practicing archaeologism look back in time to only the period they happen to like and ignore everything that has developed in music since? Crazy!

Hopefully in ensemble playing, there is agreement between the instruments. I think some ensembles are stuck with what their instruments can produce, and thereby stuck with the sound of a particular period's temperament. So ancient music ensembles exist with enthusiasts who possess period instruments that can produce those tones, and classical music groups who can produce those particular tones. Some groups will be more flexible like the voices.
I think educated musicians can understand the underlying pitch lattice as the music goes along without much effort. We can either guess that the uneducated voices can adapt this quickly, or measure what they actually do.

Recording does boost the sound. Much of the early music was performed in smaller spaces. One of my teachers once said the move to concert halls caused the death of the harpsichord.