Ordination Music
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 434
    Well since it's ordination season, and since I have a (maybe less-than-healthy) curiosity about what is being done out there for what is going on out there, I am wondering what is being done for ordination Masses. Here in St. Petersburg we had ours this past Saturday, and here's what went down:

    Prelude: "Make Strong for Service" (Cherubini, adapt. Proulx?)
    Entrance: "O God beyond All Praising" (THAXTED, arr. Proulx)
    Sprinking Rite: "Springs of Water Bless The Lord" (Alonso)
    Gloria: from A New Mass for Congregations (Andrews - RIP)
    Responsorial Psalm: Psalm 27: "Do Not Be Afraid" (Willcock)
    Alleluia: "Good News Acclamation" (Chepponis)
    Litany of the Saints: (Bridge)
    Laying on of Hands: "Hymn to the Holy Spirit" (Currie) & "O God, You Search Me" (Farrell)
    Kiss of Peace: "Set Your Heart on the Higher Gifts" (Warner)
    Offertory: "Ave Maria" (Andrews)
    Sanctus, Mysterium, Amen, Agnus: from Mass of Redemption (Janco)
    Pater noster: (Warner)
    Communion: "Ave verum corpus" (Mozart) & " I Am the Bread of Life" (Toolan, arr. Proulx)
    Recessional: "Festival Canticle: Worthy Is Christ" (Hillert)

    Please pray for all our priests, especially those newly ordained or soon to be ordained!
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Does anyone see an incongruity in ending an Ordination to the Catholic priesthood with quite possibly the most famous modernLutheran hymn?

  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 338
    No. The text is actually from the Bible, which, last I checked, was a Catholic book.
    Thanked by 9Spriggo Andrew Motyka CharlesW Adam Wood CHGiffen melofluent Ben MarkThompson BruceL
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Chris, if there was an incongruity that I did notice with the Hillert choice, it was as a recessional. Singing "This IS the Feast of Victory for our God...." after "Ite missa est....Deo gratias" is a minor theological nit to pick. It would however be quite silly to sing "This WAS the feast..."
    As some Lutherans continue to profess the Real Presence, I don't see a muck to rake in the hymn itself.
    For the rest of the ordo, it could be regarded as a middle of the road/something for everyone sort of amalgam. Were I to go hyper-critical, I'd ask why the Mozart? Why the Mozart? Why the Mozart?
    Why, always the Mozart?
    But perhaps that's what they could manage, or they did it with absolute precision and passion.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I think it's actually BETTER than "middle of the road."

    In fact, at my former, far away from here, crazy parish, this music list would have never flown. Too traditional. Entrance, Recessional, Communion, and Psalm are "traditional," i.e. organ based. And the use of Latin at preparation and Communion.

    There's not much here to complain about. And although it might be a bit more "contemporary" than we would expect at an ordination mass in say, Boston or Philadelphia, for Florida ... There's really not much here to complain about.
    Thanked by 2melofluent Andrew Motyka
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Were I to go hyper-critical, I'd ask why the Mozart? Why the Mozart? Why the Mozart? Why, always the Mozart?


    Uneducated guess, knowing nothing about the music program of that cathedral or diocese: It can be done well by volunteers, since it's accompanied. The same choir that can pull the Mozart off well might be a disaster if they attempted the Byrd setting.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 434
    We actually did the Byrd for the Chrism Mass. The makeup of the choir and more limited rehearsal schedule this time around probably necessitated the Mozart (the Chrism Mass choir contained most of the music directors in the diocese, whereas the ordination choir was based around the cathedral's volunteer choir with some of us music directors adding in).

    Or...maybe one of the ordinands requested it? (Hopeful/wishful thinking?)
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    PGA/CF,
    I trust you both (and anyone else) realized there was no intended snub or criticism being leveled by calling out the Mozart. In point of fact, I qualified as how it could have been done superbly.
    Thank you.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    I'm not sure the hymn's text "This is the feast of victory" suits an ordination: it seems more apt for Easter, Ascension, or a Sunday of the Easter season.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    RC, I remember first encountering the Hillert at an NPM in St. Louis, where it was quite correctly used as a Communio. Its use in a eucharistic context seems to not only open it up for the feasts you mention, but for Corpus Christi, Christ the King etc., no?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I typically hear it used during Communion as well.
    Thanked by 1hymndescants.org
  • Tournemire
    Posts: 74
    The Cathedral of Christ the Light, Diocese of Oakland

    Prelude: Suite in D (organ and trumpet) George Frederic Handel
    Processional Hymn: Church of God, Elect and Glorious Hyfrydol
    Introit: Sacerdotes Dei (chant)
    Kyrie & Gloria Mass VIII (Missa de angelis)
    Responsorial Psalm Psalm 110 (Spanish/English) Rudy de Vos
    Gospel Acclamation Alleluia O Fillii et filiae
    Litany of Saints chant (ICEL)
    Laying on of hands silence and organ improv
    Kiss of Peace Christ Before Us Suo Gân
    Offertory Strengthen for Service Leo Nestor
    Offertory Antiphon Sicut in holocausto (chant)
    Eucharistic Acclamations Community Mass Richard Proulx
    Agnus Dei Mass VIII (Missa de angelis)
    Communion Antiphon Ego sum pastor bonus (chant)
    Communion Procession That All May Be One in Christ (Eng/Vtnm/Spa Trilingual) Ricky Manalo
    Communion Motet The Eyes of All Wait Upon Thee Jean Berger
    Recessional Hymn O God, Beyond All Praising Thaxted
    Postlude: Final (from Symphonie no. 2 in D) Charles-Marie Widor
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    It is absolutely true that the Bible is a Catholic text. My problem isn't with the text, as far as it goes.

    The problem is that the piece is Lutheran. It was composed for the Lutheran non-Mass and other non-Catholic ceremonies. Does this make it inherently bad? I don't think so, but it does make it, by its nature, unsuitable for a Catholic ordination.

    St. Patrick wouldn't approve of Riverdance at Mass. Does that make Riverdance intrinsically evil? I don't think that it does. It makes it inappropriate for Mass.

    My mother-in-law tells of an occasion when some musician sang Mother Mary, Come to Me,by the Beatles, at Mass. Manifestly, this should not have been done.

    Imagine someone singing the words to American Pie at Mass: "The Three Men I admire the most: the Father, Son and Holy Ghost"...... Is the song evil? No. Does it belong at Mass? Just as emphatically, NO.

  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The problem is that the piece is Lutheran.


    I guess I won't be using Joy to the World, this Christmas (Since Dr Watts wrote it for non-Catholic worship).
    Thanked by 2BruceL CHGiffen
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Oh for heaven's sake, Chris. Festival Canticle, written as an alternate to the Glory to God in the Highest for the Lutheran Book of Worship, is in no way inimical to a different use at a Catholic Mass. There's no comparison whatsoever to be made to Riverdance, or the Beatles, or American Pie.

    And Lutherans are not enemies of Catholics. If you are going to make an issue about not using music composed by non-Catholics, there goes Bach and many others, as Salieri mentions.

    And why did you not complain about the Diocese of St. Petersburg using three arrangements by the (RIP) Episcopalian, Richard Proulx?

    P.S. The Ordination in Oakland also used quite a bit of music by non-Catholics!
    Thanked by 9BruceL melofluent Adam Wood Spriggo CHGiffen Ben CharlesW SarahJ RPBurke
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    For once, I find myself agreeing with Fr. K. Comparing Festival Canticle with Riverdance is rather silly. As long as the text is solid (it's scripture, so that's fine) and the music is liturgically appropriate, it's fine. What about Bach? He's not my favorite, but it's certainly liturgically appropriate? What about all people that on earth do dwell? William Kethe was not catholic, but the melody is clearly appropriate, and the text is a clear paraphrase of scripture.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    And why not complain about the Luther chorale "O Sacred Head Sore Wounded" ("O Haupt voll Blut und Wunden") harmonized by that Lutheran J.S. Bach? There goes Good Friday for 95% of Catholics.

    Ralph Vaughan Williams wrote "Come Down O Love Divine" to his own tune DOWN AMPNEY for use in the Church of England. Is that also verboten?

    How many Charles Wesley hymns must we toss out, because Charles and his brother John were, of all things, founders of the Methodist movement in the Church of England?

    This Catholic "jingoism" that seems to rise up here from time to time is really tiring, nonconstructive, and depressing (at least to me). We are all children of the same Father and hold a huge store of beliefs in common with our other Christian brothers and sisters.

    Unless there is errant theology or dogma in a hymn or other sacred music, please don't dismiss it just because its author happens not to be Catholic.

    Thanked by 4Spriggo BruceL MarkThompson RPBurke
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Ralph Vaughan Williams wrote "Come Down O Love Divine" to his own tune DOWN AMPNEY for use in the Church of England. Is that also verboten?


    Not to mention that RVW was an atheist who later drifted into agnosticism. O the humanity!
  • Gustavo Zayas
    Posts: 87
    Yes, Caleferink, about your inquiry, here's what I'm doing.

    Prelude: most likely French organ music (sorry, I'm not the organist)
    Processional: Laudate Dominum by C. Walker and Holy God, we praise Thy name
    Kyrie: Mass XVI
    Gloria: Mass VIII
    Psalm: 100 by M. Guimont
    Alleluia: chant, Mode VI
    Litany: ICEL
    Laying on of hands: Veni Creator Spiritus (odd verses in Latin, even verses in Haitian Kreyol) and Eres Tú, Jesus by T. Rubi
    Kiss of Peace: Sa Pov Genyen by A. Phillipe and Pescador de hombres by C. Gabaráin
    Offertory: Juravit Dominus by N. Montani
    Sanctus, Mem. Acclamation, Amen: Community Mass by R. Proulx
    Lord's Prayer: sung in Latin
    Agnus Dei: Mass XVIII
    Communion:
    1) Jesus went through all the towns (invited group)
    2) Ave verum corpus by Mozart
    3) Prayer of St. Francis by S. Temple
    Recessional: Regina caeli and Sing with all the saints in glory (trilingual verses)
    Postlude: not likely

    We're also doing middle-of-the-road, it's just a road that happens to be near the islands. :)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    I definitely have mixed feelings about the subject of Catholic vrs. non-Catholic music/hymns/texts, etc. Don't know if this will ever be clear to me. Drinking songs that became hymns is a whole nother can of worms (hmmm.... maybe that is exactly what they are!)
  • RevAMG
    Posts: 162
    In the Diocese of La Crosse, our ordinations are not until the end of June but here's what we did the last few years:

    2013 Ordination:
    Prelude: Sonata in E Minor (Handel)
    Processional: O God, Beyond All Praising (THAXTED)
    Introit: Dominus secus mare Galilaeae (Chant)
    Gloria: Mass for a Servant Church (Guimont)
    Psalm: 110 (John Schiavone)
    Alleluia: Melchior Vulpius (setting: Brian Luckner)
    Litany: Chant
    Veni Creator Spiritus: Chant
    Anointing: Sacerdotes Domini (Byrd)
    Sign of Peace: Sonata in B-flat Major (Telemann)
    Preparation: Gloria a Te, Cristo Gesù (Lécot)
    Sanctus: Mass for a Servant Church (Guimont)
    Memorial Acclamation: Mass for a Servant Church (Guimont)
    Amen: Mass for a Servant Church (Guimont)
    Lord's Prayer: Chant (Snow)
    Agnus Dei: Missa in Honorem Sancti Josephi (Flor Peeters)
    Communion: Laudate Dominum (Jan Pieterszoon Sweelinck)
    Communion (assembly): Draw Us in the Spirit's Tether (UNION SEMINARY)
    Recessional: Go Make of All Disciples (ELLECOMBE)
    Postlude: Prelude and Fugue in F-Major (Lübeck)

    2012 Ordination:
    Prelude: Sonata in D Minor (Handel)
    Prelude II: Introit: Dominus secus mare Galilaeae (Chant)
    Processional: O God, Beyond All Praising (THAXTED)
    Gloria: Mass for a Servant Church (Guimont)
    Psalm: 110 (Brian Luckner)
    Alleluia: Melchior Vulpius (setting: Brian Luckner)
    Litany: Chant
    Veni Creator Spiritus: Chant
    Anointing: Strengthen for Service, Lord (Arnatt)
    Sign of Peace: Sonata in C Minor (Vivaldi)
    Preparation: Let the People Praise Thee, O God (Mathias)
    Sanctus: Mass for a Servant Church (Guimont)
    Memorial Acclamation: Mass for a Servant Church (Guimont)
    Amen: Mass for a Servant Church (Guimont)
    Lord's Prayer: Chant (Snow)
    Agnus Dei: Mass of the Redeemer (Brian Luckner)
    Communion: Anima Christi (Powell)
    Communion (assembly): Forever I Will Sing (Proulx)
    Recessional: Go Make of All Disciples (ELLECOMBE)
    Postlude: Fanfare (Lemmens)

    2011 Ordination:
    Prelude: Sonata in B-flat major (Corelli)
    Prelude II: How Lovely Are the Messengers (Mendelssohn)
    Prelude III: Gaudeamus omnes in Domino (Introit, Nativity of the BVM)
    Processional: Lord, Whose Love in Humble Service (HYFRYDOL)
    Gloria: A Festival Liturgy (Hillert)
    Psalm: 13 (Brian Luckner)
    Alleluia: Proulx
    Litany: Chant
    Veni Creator Spiritus: Chant
    Anointing: Oh Santísima (Spanish) (O DU FRÖLICHE)
    Sign of Peace: Ave, Maris Stella / Ave Maria (Gerald Near)
    Preparation: Jubilate Deo omnis terra (Flor Peeters)
    Sanctus: Community Mass (Proulx)
    Memorial Acclamation: Community Mass (Proulx)
    Amen: Community Mass (Proulx)
    Lord's Prayer: Chant (Snow)
    Agnus Dei: Music for a Solemn Eucharist (Leo Nestor)
    Communion: Ave Maria (Parsons)
    Communion (assembly): Draw Us in the Spirit’s Tether (UNION SEMINARY)
    Recessional: O Christ the Great Foundation (AURELIA)
    Postlude: Allabreve in D major (BWV 589) (Bach)
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Archdiocese of Cincinnati:

    http://www.stpeterinchainscathedral.org/upload/Priesthood Ordination 2014.pdf
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Tournemire (or anyone), is Christ Before Us (Suo Gan) in a hymnal?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    http://cdn.ocp.org/shared/pdf/preview/30101325.pdf
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Thanks! Btw, Fr., I 've been praying for you. Hope you are well and enjoying this Easter!
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Thanks, Kathy. I had a quintuple lumbar laminectomy, spinal decompression, and fusion on April 15. Then recuperation at a parish across town since Holy Saturday afternoon. Two days ago the neurosurgeon told me I did not need to use a walker any longer, and to wean myself off the back brace over the next month. And x-rays confirm that the fusion is happening. Thanks for your prayers and those of all.
    Thanked by 7Paul F. Ford melofluent Andrew Motyka Kathy Adam Wood MarkThompson bonniebede
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,508
    Marvelous. Thanks be to God!
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    Prayers for your continued recovery, and echoing Kathy's sentiments, too!!
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest. Thought I was stating the obvious.

    Oh well.

    Given that the Lutherans broke with Rome over several doctrines, including the nature of the Mass -- and they deny the sacrificing priesthood, and transubstantiation -- I found it strange that someone would choose to use a Lutheran hymn at a Catholic ordination. No one else finds it strange.

    Fr. Krisman,

    1) I hope you have a speedy recovery.
    2) I didn't know that Richard Proulx wasn't Catholic, and I hadn't seen the information about the ordination in St. Petersburg, so I commented on what I did see.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    We had "A Festival Canticle" in my diocese too; it doesn't express any controversial doctrine.

    If anything, one might wonder about another piece we sang, "Draw Us In The Spirit's Tether", whose text by Percy Dearmer suggests a rather low concept of sacraments. It was published in 'Songs of Praise Enlarged' (1931) which Dearmer edited with RVW and Martin Shaw. The popular tune UNION SEMINARY became associated with the text later.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,477
    Richard Proulx was Catholic. And then he wasn't.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Fr. Krisman's post brings up a thought I had the other day:

    How many of you have diocese where the music planning for ordination is a "collaborative effort" between you and another person(s)? I do try to ask the ordinands for input, but I am also very thankful that I (generally speaking) have just the rector/bishop to consult.
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 434
    Reviving this ordination thread as I just got this year's St. Petersburg Diocese ordination Mass music (Sat., May 16):

    Choral Prelude: "O God, You Search Me" (Farrell)
    Entrance: "Go Up to the Altar of God" (Chepponis)
    Sprinkling Rite (!): "Springs of Water, Bless the Lord" (Alonso)
    Gloria: A New Mass for Congregations (Andrews, arr. Biery)
    Responsorial Psalm: "Psalm 27: Do Not Be Afraid" (Willcock)
    Alleluia: "Festvial Alleluia" (Chepponis)
    Litany of the Saints: (Bridge)
    Laying on of Hands: "Veni Creator Spiritus" (straight, unadulterated chant)
    Kiss of Peace: "Heart of a Shepherd" (Cooney) & "Take, O Take Me as I Am" (Bell)
    Offertory: "Non nobis Domine" (Doyle)
    Sanctus, Mysterium, Amen, & Agnus: Mass of Wisdom
    Pater noster: (the dreaded & ubiquitous Warner our bishop loves so much)
    Communion: "Pescador de hombres" (Gabaráin, arr. Abell) / "I Am the Bread of Life" (Toolan, arr. Proulx) / "Ave Maria (Angelus Domini)" (Biebl)
    Recessional: "O God beyond All Praising" (arr. Proulx)
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,190
    Here is the ordination music for the Louisville archdiocese. As I am banned from being a part of it, it gives me no pleasure:
    Opening Song: Laudate Dominum (Walker)
    Gloria: Melodic Gloria (Chepponis)
    Psalm 96: Proclaim His Marvelous Deeds (Timothy R. Smith)
    Gospel Acclamation: Festival Alleluia (Chepponis)
    Rite of Ordination
    Litany of the Saints (chant)
    Veni Sancte Spiritus (Walker)
    Preparation of Altar/Gifts: Wisdom Is Calling (Joncas)
    Mass of Christ the Savior (Schutte)
    Communion: Heart of a Shepherd (Cooney)
    Closing Song: To Be Your Presence SINE NOMINE

    According to the office of Worship, one is supposed to use Veni Sancte as opposed to Veni Creator.
    Yeah,Yeah.... I will not be going this year either.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I believe the Veni Creator is now reserved as "proper" for Episcopal Consecrations/Ordinations.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Kevin, that ordo is weak to be sure. Do tell about your banishment, I'll enjoy a shot of Woodford while reading.
    The last episcopal installation I attended resulted from coercion, as if my wife and I did not participate, no one from our little mini-See merge would represent our city. The music was very similar. Wendy was the lead soprano/psalmist and I simply played guitar. It gave us something to do, if you follow my logic.
    When I've visited other parishes and run into the same or worse (Spirit and Song) rep, I make an internal vow to remember why I'm there in the first place, offer it up. I don't join in singing "Awesome God" stuff while keeping a prayerful demeanor internally and externally. However, if there is something like the chanted Litany of the Saints (above) then I join that in full throttle mode. I'm mindful not to make a spectacle of it, but how I choose to exercise FCAP in such situations is an expression of conscience and free will. What others make of it is no concern to me.
    As an aside, unfamiliar with the text to the RVW above, does "pres-...." land on the first beat after "(rest-To be your/)"? If that "pres-" is on the half note, that's just plain stupid.
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford eft94530
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    According to the office of Worship, one is supposed to use Veni Sancte as opposed to Veni Creator.

    Well, not exactly. The 1990 second typical edition of the Rites of Ordination removes the hymn Veni creator spiritus as an option for the music to accompany the investiture. I have not seen any commentary on why the CDWDS did this. (Was there such a commentary in Notitiae?) I could imagine that the thinking may have been that it made little sense to be invoking the Holy Spirit after the ordination had already taken place. If that was the reasoning, why would singing the Pentecost sequence make sense?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    As an aside, unfamiliar with the text to the RVW above, does "pres-...." land on the first beat after "(rest-To be your/)"? If that "pres-" is on the half note, that's just plain stupid.

    "pres-" actually occurs on a dotted half note (three times, no less). I think there are many more problems - especially the long drawn out prepositions - with using SINE NOMINE for Sr. Delores Dufner's text. ENGELBERG works much better (with only one Alleluia at the end of each stanza). See Worship 4, no. 794.
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Fr. Ron, I just forgot that it was a dotted half. Perhaps I improved the hymn by dropping the third beat? ;-) Oops, then I guess we couldn't sing the hymn at all, it now requiring a new syllable in three places. Da-gna-bit!
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,190
    Dear Charles...get out your Woodford. I have been openly critical of the Office of Worship for sometime. After being asked to sing in the ordination choir two years ago, I was not happy with the ordo and said so. It was a sad affair to see the ordo. I was subsequently banned by the Office of Worship to participate in presbyteral ordinations because of my bad attitude. Funny, because they had to deal with me anyway this year as they had a diaconal ordination at my parish. It was a tense affair to say the least. But they were unhappy with a lot of things that are happening at my place....the reform rolls on.

    I wear the ban as a badge of honor.
    Thanked by 4melofluent Ben CHGiffen JulieColl
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,309
    Kevin, that surprises me not in the least... I know my own parish staff is critical at least implicitly of the Office of Worship based on the direction we have taken for many years. I have no idea what they say publicly or privately on things like the liturgy column in the Record, but I do note the absence of many priests and deacons from events like ordinations...
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