Place of Vernacular Hymns in a Traditional Catholic worldview
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Charles:

    What does it tell us about the current state of Catholic culture in America and other parts of the globe that the use of Latin will get a DM run out the door?

    What does it tell us about the current state of Catholic education that Latin is taken as a fancy option for the hoity-toity crowd of evil undo-Vatican-II people, instead of the language which unites people -- as it was in Shakespearean England and 18th century France and... most of the scientific world?

    Thanked by 1francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Chris, I didn't make the world. What it tells us is that it is what it is. I handle it all as best I can.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I'm not advocating going against the *personal choice* of the pastor, and it's true that many music directors are not allowed any Gregorian chant, Latin or Greek. Been there!!

    Still, I'm not in favor of Gregorian chant being associated with Lent and Advent only. That's 10 weeks out of the year- less than 1/5.

    OTOH, maybe it signals to some people that when we reach back to some what makes us distinctively Catholic, we reach back to timeless Gregorian chant.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Also, I don't think it's necessarily about Latin.
    In a culture of "understand it, buy it, own it NOW", maybe it's more about not getting what we want immediately.
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Many parishes in my area have an intense Babylonian division of congregants. I attended an orientation for the diocese liturgical leadership program, and found the consensus was for the alien races to return to their respective father lands. I was so moved by the way people agreed with the racists that I totally pulled out. Doing so didn't help my career, but I kept my sanity.

    The Latin is the one area the people can share across the aisles, as we saw during the Pange Lingua which followed bilingual mass, the only time everyone sang together. In a penitential world, Latin would be a good way to drive out racism, IMHO a facet of latinophobia.
    Thanked by 1ZacPB189
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    If you are a musician capable of this sort of workload, you'll be in demand.


    My guess is you don't live in the southern USA?

    Let's consider two important factors:

    1.) Liturgical Needs
    2.) Music Resources

    Your average suburban Catholic Church just wants there to be music at Sunday Mass. Most congregations would prefer poor music to no music at all. This is why there is a plethora of volunteers with their guitars singing all sorts of sacro-pop.


    The reason they prefer poor music over no music, I believe, is two-fold:
    1) no understanding or appreciation of sacred music, or liturgy for that matter
    2) volunteers are free, and since the quality of music is not an issue, free is always best

    I don't believe it's the lack of money that's the issue, but priorities. The paid music minister at our parish is the one with the guitar, not the one with the ability to teach and lead sacred music. Our organist is paid a small amount for one Mass per week but I have never gotten the impression that he is desired over the guitarist, only that we happen to have a nice organ and we've always had an organist for one Mass. I seriously doubt anyone besides my family would miss the organist if he left--they'd just plug in the synthesizer when they want organ music. Only a priest with interest in sacred music could turn things around.
    Thanked by 2francis noel jones, aago
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    At our church, we are converting our hall into a worship space. Right now, we have a church that seats about 150 people, and a small Roland RM700 keyboard that we play everything on. We also have a Hammond B3 in the choir loft which I have been forbidden to play. I fear that we'll just roll the Roland (no pun intended) into the new worship space and leave it at that. Of course, I'd like to install a little positiv organ in there, but as was mentioned above: the Roland can sound like an organ right? so what's the point of spending more money? Anyone know where I can get an organ for free (that would be playable)?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    CK, where are you located?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Indianapolis area.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Cool, CK. My late sister's husband and two of their sons are in the Indianapolis area.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    This is kind of on a different thread, but I'll see you at the colloquium then, Charles?
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    What would be an interesting study is to see how many of the earlier hymns (percentage) talk about US/WE in comparison to those of today.

    Te Deum laudamus?
    Audi, benigne Conditor?
    Precemur omnes cernui?
    Ad cenam Agni providi?
    O Lux, beata Trinitas?
    Luminis fons, lux et origo lucis?
    Salve Regina?
    Ave Regina coelorum?

    Percentage? Not so sure.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I regularly provide alnost the entire 18 items of music that I had listed previously. Sung credo is unlikely to happen in my parish any time soon.

    I make life easier for myself by chanting the responsorial psalm to one of the office psalm tones. Tone 8G and 2D are the ones I most commonly use, although Tonus Peregrinus was used a fair bit during lent. The plan is to familiarise the congregation with the psalm tones so that we can eventually introduce sung vespers. The clergy at my parish are from a monastic order.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Speaking of which, does anybody have or know of a good setting of the Our Father in English for congregational use? If not, I'll have to write one.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    fcb

    No, those are all prayers directed to God, not each other in the congregation. Those kind of I/We hymns are how we are SUPPOSED make supplication to God. (Basically, asking God for help, his mercy, forgiving us our sin, etc.)

    The I/WE I am referring to is singing ABOUT ourselves, TO ourselves and each other and very little or any sense of addressing our prayers or praise to God or imploring his help and aid to lift us out of ourselves.

  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    I agree that there is a difference between using first person pronouns, and actually singing about oneself in any manner not self-deprecating, you know, the texts found int the "But Enough About Me, God, What Do You Think Of Me?" hymnal.

    (Save the Liturgy, save the World)
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    No, those are all prayers directed to God, not each other in the congregation.


    Sorry, didn't realize that you meant a particular kind of I/WE.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    fcb... yes... the I/WE that is riddled throughout our big present hymnal publishers. You know... narcissistic pantheistic new age we-are-the-body warm and fuzzy your ok i'm ok we-all-believe-in-the-same-god-no-matter-what-name-your-god-goes-by types
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Use either ICEL Tone or the AECL tone for the Our Father.
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