Were You There
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The best reason to do 'Were you There' during Holy Week is the same best reason for doing 'Amazing Grace' at funerals.

    Spontaneous congregational a cappella harmony.
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Spontaneous congregational a cappella harmony.


    This must be an Episcopalian thing, because when my congregation improvises a cappella harmony, it sounds more like Penderecki or Schonberg. (If only it sounded like John Cage.)
    Thanked by 2CharlesW futurefatherz
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    kenstb

    Do you really LOVE to disagree with me? If so, why?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    This must be an Episcopalian thing

    Or possibly a Southern thing.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Ah, Southern Harmony.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Even further back, to New England, to auto-didact William Billings in the 1770s. The first American "anthem", Chester, was initially written in 1770 and revised in 1778:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--XA2OtAPnk

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chester_(song)

    Before Billings, part-singing in the Colonies was, well, often a penance on the ears; part-singing was resisted in most of the English-language Reformed, non-liturgical, denominations, and when it first came it was harsh and loud.

  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    The best reason to do 'Were you There' during Holy Week is the same best reason for doing 'Amazing Grace' at funerals.


    So you can avoid being lynched after Mass and still be around tomorrow to try to work towards the sacred. This motivation is good enough for lots of stuff to slip by.
    Thanked by 5Ignoto Wendi CharlesW JDE futurefatherz
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    And to think, I have no objection to Amazing Grace either ... I choose it myself on occasion.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Amazing Grace is one that I program once per quarter. The associate pastor has pointed out that it presents a Calvinist understanding of grace, not a Catholic one. He understands I realize that and am doing for the people who request it. It is like How Great Thou Art in that it has endeared itself to many of the pips. Not one of my favorites either, but I can live with it. If I have to pick a battle, I would rather fight it over beagles wings than any of the above.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    John Newton was an evangelical Anglican with a relatively low Calvinism, so it's best not to read too much of a Calvinism into that text, but more of a story of personal conversion from the immorality of slave trading to being a resolute champion of God-given human dignity in the anti-slavery movement at its inflection point in British popular culture, which became a legacy to all the English-speaking peoples. That alone makes it an immortal English-language hymn.
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Amazing Grace is one that I program once per quarter (century).
    Thanked by 1futurefatherz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    ROFL.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    It's apparently not clear how old the song is, and it was first published in 1899.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Were_You_There
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    Newton of course wrote Amazing Grace many years before he retired from slave-trading. From what I understand his conversion involved giving up dice & swearing.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Francis, I do love a good airing of views that are not necessarily my own. I enjoy disagreeing with you because very often your answers are pretty well thought out, and I see things from a point of view that is very different and quite sincere.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    RIchard

    Newton wrote the text years after he left slave-trading; he did, however, begin his conversion while still in slave-trading.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    So, he converted after he was no longer receiving any money or benefits from slave trading? That sounds terribly like an Augustinian conversion to me. I need to read up on Newton.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    Well, Newton's public association with the anti-slavery campaign came after he published Amazing Grace, but his evangelical conversion occurred in the years he was actively involved in the trade. The hymn text came between these decades. Even though the text seems to indicate a Damascene moment, in fact his very life was an illustration of gradual unfolding of conversion. Which is really the point of my intervention against reductionist readings against Amazing Grace.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    There is a very good arrangement by Noel Goemanne, although for TTBB. It almost makes it into a piece of art.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    As far as Wikipedia can be trusted, Liam is right that Amazing Grace was written (1772) and published (1779) after Newtons last sea voyage (1752-4). He remained a shareholder in slaving companies for an unspecified period (but quite long, iirc) and began to become associated with abolitionism after 1780, publishing Thoughts Upon the Slave Trade in 1788. His conversion experience during a storm at sea was in 1748.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I have never understood the objection to this hymn. It's a traditional four-square hymn, not easily accompanied on piano or guitar, it's old, it's about the crucifixion. I suspect there are many who don't like it because progressives seem to love it - why they do, I don't know. (Probably because of its supposed African-American origins, but that's no reason for us to dislike it)

    And regarding the text; Were you there? If Mass is truly a re-presentation of Calvary, then yes, you were there. Often. It is not the most in-depth text, so I would want to make sure the rest of the hymns have some solid content (Ah, Holy Jesus or something) to balance it out.

    I will never understand objection to this piece. And I'll keep using it every year, until someone pries the hymnal out of my cold dead hands.
    Thanked by 5Spriggo Andrew Motyka Adam Wood Liam Patricia Cecilia
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I would like to put, "Ah, Holy Jesus" in place of it, but AHJ disappeared from our GIA hymnals a long time ago. Why I don't know, since it is a good hymn. I remember being told to never use the accompaniment to "Holy God..." as far back as Worship II, since it was awful. Editors - you either love them or want to kill them.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I agree with Gavin. I just don't see anything so objectionable. Believe me, I do battle if there's something I feel strongly about - and as noted before, I usually win. This is the luxury that I'm afforded from having a strong and orthodox pastor and the support of most parishioners.

    But this isn't a battle I even DESIRE to fight.
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka Spriggo
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I don't fight that battle since it isn't worth it. I program "Were You There" on Good Friday, and it isn't heard again until the next year. I personally am not fond of it, but it isn't worth fighting over.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    My objection is that I don't care for it, and unlike with people (where I only make fun of the ones I like) I sometimes make fun of songs I don't care for.

    If I was producing a hymnal, I'd probably include it.
    When asked to use it, I don't object.

    I don't understand people's extreme dislike for it.
    And I REALLY don't understand people's extreme like for it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I have three issues with WYT (although none are quite enough for me not to sing it once a year)
    -Its popularity is melody-driven, I believe. In other words, it is not, like the chant, a cantillation of text, but a really cool tune that some words work with.
    -About the words: what do they mean exactly?
    -Insofar as the words mean anything--standing by the cross of Jesus--the Stabat Mater says the same and in a better way, including ecclesial and eschatological dimensions of devotion.
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    My thinking is that it is a C grade hymn. Sentimentality is the largest strike against it. Good Friday is a very significant time of the year and deserves the BEST music we can offer. This hymn displaces (shoves to the side) music and text that are more appropriate, more focused and theologically richer. The music is trite and banal and there are so many more better selections.
    Thanked by 2kenstb rich_enough
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I actually do agree with Francis' last assessment that there are just better things out there. But I'll probably pair it with Victoria's "Popule Meus," which we oddly enough have not done up to this point, and it'll work well in the same key. So things will end up well.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I like the pragmatic tenor of this last series of comments. Regarding the merit of the tune, remember all is relative. WYT has more in common with "Passion chorale" in terms of its populist origins, than does a much more aesthetically complete hymn such as "In Christ there is no east or west," or "Salve festa dies." But, try to coax the average American congregation to take either of the latter up, good luck.
    As Kathy says, once a year. Don't dismiss its use once as "throwing them a bone," use it discreetly. We sang it a capella, outta the hymnal SATB, and no louder than piano. Everyone sang in that manner throughout the church. No one died or ran down to the Anglicans.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    While I don't particularly mind the hymn, I didn't do it this year. My parish made use of the Stabat Mater. I understand and agree with Francis that sentimentality is the driving force behind the selection of this piece for Good Friday, but I have found that by introducing the congregation to better music earlier in Lent, by Holy Week, they have learned the melodies and there is very little resistance to the chants we choose to sing.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Supposedly, we have liturgies which have some aesthetic substance and foundation expressed with a consistent aesthetic.


    Were your supposition true!!

    But your thesis is exactly correct. The Good Friday service, both EF and OF, is very spare. The term 'desolate' comes to mind, not accidentally.

    While "Were You.." is not objectionable per se, it does not fit easily into the mold of that service. It's too sentimental--albeit not drippy.

    I think we can blame JSBach for introducing sentimentality with his Passion choruses, such as "O Grosse Lieb" from the St John.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    We didn't sing it at Our Lady of Walsingham. With the exception of an anthem by Juan of Portugal and two Bach chorales, all the music was the Gregorian chants for the Good Friday liturgy as adapted to English by Palmer and Burgess. 'Were you there' is fine, fitting and moving for an extraliturgical devotional service. Being weepily subjective ('maudlin' is the word) and over-wrought, it is a cantus inaptus for any liturgy. The only rationale for it is that certain people want to hear it no matter what.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Maybe that can lead to a use: at Stations.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Excellent idea, Chonak.
    It always feels odd in the liturgy to me, though I've often sung it and programmed it.
    It would be a loss if consistent programming gave people the impression that WYT was an essential part of the Good Friday liturgy, or any liturgy. But it's also true that it's expected. So why not shake it up and use it for devotions?

    I wish more Catholics were exposed to the Reproaches. The music and text is so incredibly moving and personal. And the hymn included in the liturgy, Crux fidelis, is also quite glorious.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    I wish more Catholics were exposed to the Reproaches. The music and text is so incredibly moving and personal. And the hymn included in the liturgy, Crix fidelis, is also quite glorious.


    Yes. That is why they are actually suggested as the first choice in the Missal. I always use them even if I use other hymns.

    While the adoration of the Holy Cross is taking place, the antiphon Crucem tuam adoramus
    (We adore your Cross, O Lord), the Reproaches, the hymn Crux fidelis (Faithful Cross) or other
    suitable chants are sung
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Thanks, Francis, for the apt reminder.
    That's a great connecting point for both forms of our Rite.

    And I fixed my sloppy spelling- well at least the one I saw! :)
    Thanked by 1francis
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    And I fixed my sloppy spelling- well at least the one I saw! :)

    Well, daughter o mine, there is an apt for that!
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    This thread points out what is possibly the main challenge in out vocation: how to deal with one thing: What people expect when the come to a particular liturgy: ie: Good Friday=WYT, and another thing: what is better more proper music such as in the missal, but is unknown by the people...This seems to me a principal question about what we do. How do we deal with this? If we all totally refuse (even with good support from documents etc.) to ever sing culturally expected music, we will all most likely be replacing the communion procession with the employment procession, not to mention other problems that develop...We can be right, but it doesn't matter in the reality of the parish situation. How do y'all deal with this?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    ghmus:

    First off, I don't even consider attempting proper sacred music without the complete backing of the pastor. It ain't going to happen if he isn't in on everything that you do and entirely on board.

    Second, if you have that, I like to introduce one new piece for each feast day that replaces the worst of the lot from the previous feast day. Then transition that way for about five years or so, dealing with disappointments or requests as needed. You cannot be hard and fast. It must be soft and slow.

    Then those who are truly open to grow all of a sudden begin to wake up to the reality, and I have found that it will never be the same for that parish after that. The real kicker is consistency in the parish music program in the long term. Change in administration can reverse the whole process which I have also experienced over the years. We have no control over those circumstances, so we have to proceed as best we can.
    Thanked by 1ghmus7
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