Just to touch on this "side issue" one last time, I should clarify that when I bring up a communication problem--even on a Lenten Friday--

I'm not saying anything personally negative.

I've either lost your respect entirely or I'm an idiot. Just state which or both of those you've chosen to assign me to, and I'll try not to live up to them.

I meant neither of these things. I meant this exactly:

I have literally no idea what you are talking about.

I did not mean that you don't have my approval, for whatever it is worth. I meant literally that I did not understand the meaning of your words. All I meant was "I, Kathy, do not understand what you are saying."

Call me an idiot if you like, but I really did not understand. It's up to you whether you want to say it again clearly or not, in a way that I can understand. If you do, I would appreciate the effort, obviously. If you don't, I cannot comment on the "proposition," because I literally do not know what the proposition is.

Just as a general comment extrapolated from this particular instance of it, sometimes I wonder in life whether other people are used to other people bringing up the exact problem that they actually have, because very often when I say, "I need x in order to y," in this case "I truly need you to restate that clearly in order to understand it in even the slightest degree," nobody believes me and we end up having completely different conversations that have nothing to do with x itself. I'm left sitting here thinking, "Is x all that much to ask?" and apparently the other person is thinking, "What is she really after?" What is wrong with the world if this is the case? Or how do people usually talk? (Side issue, obviously.)

This I understand:

a comprehensive vernacular propers/ordinary/hymnody compendium

I believe that the Lumen Christi series is the rising wave of just this project.

Hymns are not always substitute propers. See, for example, GIRM 88.

What is missing in Lumen Christi? Choral propers, I suppose.

I'm familiar with GIRM 88. A hymn is allowed at that time. Not required...but allowed. Silence would be the preferred option at that point of the Mass as listed, but a hymn is allowed. I could argue that it shouldn't be allowed...but that isn't the topic of this thread.

I was addressing Melo's comments concerning a resource for the Propers, and hymn substitutions for the Propers. I was answering that question.

Perhaps it would have been clearer of me to say that most people don't understand that the use of hymns at certain points of the Mass are intended to be substitutes for the Propers.

Looking over my copy of the Lumen Christi, it seems a little thin on hymn options as substitutes for those congregations that are not ready (musically or emotionally) for chanted Propers.

I'm looking forward to it as well. However, my reading of what Melo was requesting is the hymns and chants in the same volume, and more than one author.

In the interests of full disclosure our schola uses either the SEP or the Lumen Christi Propers for all of our English chant needs.

Ignoto, point well taken. But my reference to "these propers" wasn't limited to those of Adam B in LCM, but the broader spectrum from the hymnic versions to other "new chant" versions and choral settings. I'm sure you didn't extract any criticism of Adam B. or the Illuminare contributions to "the cause." And at one point a year and half ago, we were within an inch of pulling the trigger on pulp missal/hymnal subscriptions and gearing up to purchase massive quantities of LCM as the "select" pew book people would personally own and use. But there are always contingencies, c'est la vie.
But in a way your post illustrates a concern when you mentioned the forthcoming LCHymnal. Two pew books is common, almost standard in my travels. And the contents of the LCH are, indeed, comprehensive. So, I suppose I'm reiterating something Adam Wood mentioned, the RotR version of Worship IV or BB with a variety of offerings not only from the PDomain, but also works by those composers I mentioned (and others?) whose work is not only excellent, but in the commons.

On the matter of propers with musical settings or text alone, does it make a whole lot of difference to the average parish if music (for the propers) is included? I've sat sandwiched between many parishioners with a tight grip on their hymnals who confidently prayed with incorrect rhythm and unpredictable pitch. I think a lot of people just like to "know what's going on," moreso with the words of the prayer than with the music itself. I posted here awhile back with a question on why the BB propers were a completely different scripture passage than what we sang with the SEP (the sung vs. spoken propers discrepancy), and that came up because of parishioners who wanted to follow along. They didn't care so much about seeing the music, but they wanted to know what it was that we were singing.

A pew-book that includes text for sung propers would fill that need, while freeing choirs to choose from any variety of settings they are comfortable with.

Of course, as a musician in the pews, I've also been frustrated by worship aides that are text-only. "How the heck are we supposed to sing along?" Then again, those frustrations have only been apparent when its the local Christian radio's latest sacropop hit. Simple chants and well written hymn tunes are easy to catch on with (for the musically inclined and disinclined alike), and choral propers are for the choir anyway. It is nice to read along, but the printed music isn't necessary to pray along with a motet from the loft.

"...It seems to me (and please forgive me if I am seriously misreading you) - that you are suggesting that TOO MANY RESOURCES might, itself, be a problem."

Adam, I hope he doesn't think it is a problem.

I like to call it "an embarrassment of riches". :-)

Gaudete in Domino Semper!

Good point, especially about the different scripture passage.

The MR3 translation ought to be what's printed, and any future works in this arena would be based on that translation, I assume (unless superceded by yet another translation down the road).

I agree with you.

I envision a structure similar to what Melo indicated (with the 100a, 100b, 100c, etc.) but allowing for more resources as RMSawicki mentioned, and catechesis as Wendi mentioned.

Maybe something like this:

Thursday of the Lord's Supper

(1a) The antiphon from the Missal:
*We should glory in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
in whom is our salvation, life and resurrection,
through whom we are saved and delivered.

**see 221a, 221b, or 221c

(1b) The antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum:

***see 121a

(2) The antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex:
*(text?)

****see 321a or 321b

(3) A chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons:

****see 425a-438c

(4) Another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year:

****see 510a-518d

NOTES:
*The text could be printed, or not. If it is printed, then those who want to follow along with just the text would not have to turn to the page with the music. If the various text options are printed, that might help with ryand's anecdote regarding the different scripture passages. But not printing the text might make the book thinner since the text would already be included on the music page and people might start to become "catechized" that the GIRM provides different options. The music for the psalm verses would not need to be printed if the congregation would not be singing them (unless the proper would be sung in the pews alternating left/right or men/women, as is done in some parishes).

**Then, for the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, since the text for the entrance antiphon is the same, it could similarly say "see 221a, 221b, or 221c," thereby minimizing duplication.

***Numbering the GR antiphons in the 100s might give them "pride of place."

****These numbers might be the same for several weeks in a row.

A planning guide...that's a swell idea!

Tablets synced with a Dropbox account for the parish. DM uploads material for the week. Kids can play Angry Birds when the sermon gets boring.

A parishioner (preferably female, for diversity) can play the role of Christ on Good Friday, and the children throw plush Angry Birds as they yell CRUCIFY HIM!

Sorry. Joining late. (like my new avatar? "Help me Obiwan, You're my only hope!")

I got this. I have thought this through on very deep levels and created (so far just in my mind) what it is you are all talking about. Thanks Melo for bringing it to the fore.

It is a conglomeration (single publication) of all the said 'styles' of liturgical worship that drive us all in a roundabout way back toward the 'pure?' goal of true reform. It includes the Rice, Ostrowski, Bartlett, Esguerra, Fords, Jones, Weber, Oost-Zinner, Kelly et al too numerous to include) along with the hymnic texts of Tietze, Wood, Pluth and others accessibile by their proven efforts united with known hymntunes (and I will throw in the organ works and choral works of moi). And now Dr. K is in the mix!

I foresee TWO main resources based on the present model used by WLP or GIA. (does OCP use this model too?)

1. A pew resource. (perhaps a missalette) It has all the options in it, melody only. (of course choral music would not be included, but the text in both English and Latin would be).
2. A musician resource. (perhaps a binder) that can grow over time. It has all the options in it for congregation, schola, SATB choir, cantors, organists, weddings, funerals, feast days, etc. It is the ENTIRE ball of wax, and it would include both Latin and Vernacular.

We all have the talent and ability to put it together. We are all right here in CMAA cyberspace, and we all spin our wheels here on a daily basis. (hey, I just went over the 5,000 comment mark and no one congratulated me!)

All we need now are the investors, the physical location, we all quit our jobs and move to said location, and go full time for the rest of our lives.

Do you all want to move here?

I have already written the executive summary, am working on the business plan will put the engravers/typesetters, marketeers, executives, printers, BOD, and the rest in place.

This is what it would take, nothing less. I worked in numerous large corporations at top levels in the publishing industry.

Who is serious?

All we need now are the investors, the physical location, we all quit our jobs and move to said location, and go full time for the rest of our lives.

Do you all want to move here?

Of course not.

There has to be a reasonable way to bridge the gap, and I think that's what Melo was getting at when he started this thread--I think he was attempting to elicit brainstorming ideas.

Cheers for 5,000+. Will you reciprocate when I get over 100?

I say you all move to AZ

melo

Yes, CMAA could very well take on the project. I thought they would have by now. Maybe they already are in process.

Here is the cover of my music project.

Amen brother.

Arizona:
-No snow
-Bishop Olmsted
-Birthplace of Home of RECTO TONO PROPERS

Fixed
(what's the K and H for?)

Having witnessed the live demonstration of these at last years' colloquium, I can attest to their genius.