Henrik:

This 'real' church musician thinks you are absolutely correct.

Kathy -
This shouldn't be surprising! Hymns have been used to bolster, express, and teach theology and doctrine from before Ambrose up to our time. How many of the sacro-pop hymns with which so many of our brethren are enamoured are objectionable because of faulty or shadowy, gossamer, language (which in itself is a denial of definite and objective realities)? When perusing a Lutheran hymnal, one is struck by the purposeful expression of the confessional tenets of Luther and his heirs. The language has a distinct syntax, and doctrine is as much the object as is praise and adoration. Phrases such as '... good works avail us naught', or references to our 'deliverance' from the pope (and the Turk!) are theologically based. Lutheran hymnody is as replete with them as are the hymns of Aquinas with Catholic sacramental theology. On the other hand, much Protestant and Evangelical hymnody is distinguished by a careful avoidance of explicit theological statements, some being noticeably expressive more of a vague deism than of Christianity. While a hymn such as Now Thank We All Our God, or Deck Thyself, My Soul, With Gladness, or even A Mighty Fortress can find a respectable place in Catholic worship, this is not true of many hymns of the Lutheran deposit. There are even hymns in The Hymnal 1940 that are not suitable for Catholic worship; we know they are there, and we know, as we knew before crossing the Tiber, not to use them. In spite of noting the theological problems with much non-Catholic hymnody, I shouldn't want to be seen as taking that stand that 'non-Catholic' hymnody has no place in Catholic worship. Far from it. A hymn which expresses The Truth and is absent theological error is ipso facto Catholic, even were it written by a Buddhist. Forgive me for not supplying more explicit examples... perhaps I'll get around to this later, for it is a fascinating subject.

For Kathy, who asked, et al.:
Theology in Lutheran hymnody -

Here is the first stanza of a Lutheran communion hymn, by Johann Rist (1637) -
so far as it goes it contains no error, but it does not venture into the more profound and mature sacramental understanding (dare one say 'enlightenment'?) of Catholics. Still, as are many Lutheran hymns, it is characterised by ardent mystical imagery expressive of profound emotion and very deep faith. (Trans., Catherine Winkworth)

O living Bread from heaven,
How richly hast thou fed thy guest!
The gifts thou now hast given
Have filled my heart with joy and rest.
O wondrous food of blessing,
O cup that heals our woes!
My heart, this gift professing,
In thankful songs o'erflows;
For while the faith within me
Was quickened by this food,
My soul hath gazed upon thee,
My highest, only Good.

On the surface, such expressions are spiritually moving and seemingly sound. But absent is any dogmatical understanding of the nature of the Sacrament or how it is manifest. Too, there is no apparent assertion of Luther's 'in, with, and under' concept of the Real Presence, or of the receptionism which infects much of Lutheranism in practice. Yet the deeply treasured faith and love, and the heart-felt appreciation of the benefits of this sacramental gift make one regret to find fault with it. Is it a spirituality all that different from Bianco da Sienna's Come Down, O Love Divine?

Here is the second stanza of a hymn expressive of the unfortunate Lutheran theology of atonement and justification. It is far more stridently confessional than the communion hymn above. It is by Christian L Scheidt (1742), Trans., Anonymous.

By grace! None dare lay claim to merit;
Our works and conduct have no worth.
God in his love sent our Redeemer,
Christ Jesus, to this sinful earth;
His death did for our sins atone,
And we are saved by grace alone.

Here is another in the same vein, by Paul Speratus (1523), Trans., Anonymous:

Salvation unto us has come
By God's free grace and favour;
Good works cannot avert our doom,
They help and save us never.
Faith looks to Jesus Christ alone
Who did for all the world atone;
He is our one Redeemer.

The second, third and fifth stanzas of Luther's (1524) hymn on the Ten Commandments. Though a Catholic could sing this without harm, it nonetheless has a decided confessional ring! (Trans., Richard Massie.) This entire hymn is a charming versified presentation of the commandments. Though it isn't likely that Catholic children would be taught a song such as this, there is no reason at all why they shouldn't be.

I am thy God and Lord alone,
No other God beside me own;
Put thy whole confidence in me
And love me e'er cordially.
Kyrie eleis.

By idle word and speech profane
Take not my holy name in vain;
And praise but that as good and true
Which I myself say and do.
Kyrie eleis.

Give to thy parents honour due,
Be dutiful, and loving, too;
And help them when their strength decays,
So shalt thou have length of days.
Kyrie eleis.

Two stanzas from Johann Olearius' Advent hymn (1664) which, though it hath a Lutheran tinge, could be ardently sung by almost any Christian. (Trans., August Crull.)

Come, thou precious Ransom, come,
Only Hope for sinful mortals!
Come, O Saviour of the world!
Open are to thee all portals.
Come, thy beauty let us see;
Anxiously we wait for thee.

Enter now my waiting heart,
Glorious King and Lord most holy.
Dwell in me and ne'er depart,
Tho' I am but poor and lowly.
Ah, what riches will be mine
When thou art my Guest Divine!

Space bids me stop.
It isn't the source, but the content
that makes our sentiments Catholic (or not).

Space bids me stop.
It isn't the source, but the content
that makes our sentiments Catholic (or not).

1. This is a very important point, often lost by the crypto-puritans posing as defenders of orthodoxy.

2. I totally thought this began another verse of a hymn text example. It was very weird.

--------

3. Do you know how hard it is to look for a picture of a corgi real quick for a joke? You get stuck for half-an-hour, because every single corgi picture is adorable.

Pax!
It's not just that the texts of certain hymns are problematic.
I am no specialist, but can't we also look at this subject from a musical perspective?
Does everything just have to do with the text?

In the Catholic liturgy, I look to the hymns of the divine office for guidence as what is liturgically appropriate.

Hymns are a legitimate application of "et alius cantus aptus" and in fact there are many hymns in out liturgy. The Gloria and Sanctus are in fact hymns. So is Pange Lingua/Tantum Ergo, O Salutaris, Adoro Te Devote, and many others found throughout the Gradual and Liber Usualis.

( purple ) which I still haven't learned that organ is not tuned Catholic, thus must be Lutheran. Or maybe Methodist. Unitarian? (end purple)

( purple ) which I still haven't learned that organ is not tuned Catholic, thus must be Lutheran. Or maybe Methodist. Unitarian? (end purple)

If you could stand to listen to it, it wasn't Lutheran - LOL.

Just what we need! Congregational singing is Lutheran (or whatever)! This must be music to the ears of all those Catholics who never open their mouths in song. They should be so alive with heartfelt joy as these Lutherans are. What they are singing, by the way, allowing as how it expresses Truth and contains no untruth, is Catholic. Hallelujah! (Do you think that if this were pointed out to them that they would stop singing it because it was Catholic?)

It is time we stopped thinking of congregational singing as Catholic or Protestant, but Human. Song is expressive of the human heart in love, thanksgiving and adoration. Enough from those curmudgeons and faux-Catholic spiritualists who tell our people that Catholics shouldn't, can't, or won't sing!

As for the improvised prelude, Salieri is quite right. Rather melodramatic, theatrical, and lacking in liturgical taste.

By the way, Henrik, Sweden is one of the countries I would like to visit. Please throw a snowball for me.

I feel this way whenever I read the Bible: e.g., "And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives" -- Lutherans, the lot of 'em!

I am certain the apostles were not singing, "A Mighty Fortress..." I am a bit curious as to how far back current Jewish hymns go. Are they all psalm settings or does other hymnody exist? Is it possible any of those biblical era hymns have survived all the upheavals and displacements of time?

Look up the Graduale Romanum for Palm Sunday. One item provided is the HYMNUS Gloria et laud et honor... All Glory, Laud and Honour.

This hymn text is reputed to have been written by St Theodulph and has been sung in the church in one form or another for nearly 1,000 years.

congregational singing like we have today in some Catholic churches when was that first allowed by the Church? Was it something that happened with Vatican 2
Is congregational singing really just a Latin rite tradition?

In the very early church the congregation sang the psalms together, so in essence there has always been congregational singing.

It was also quite a common practice for the congregation to sing a hymn at the end of mass as a thanksgiving, though for a long time it was after the dismissal.

Hymns sung during mass, after the propers had been sung, did happen but they had to be in Latin. Hymns such as Anima Christi or Jesu Dulcis Memoria were popular and well known. O Sanctissima was often sung on Marian feasts.

The singing of vernacular hymns during the mass came about during the 20th century, although it already existed in some places by indult. The practice was to sing vernacular hymns during a Missa Lecta or Low Mass. The hymns were sung during the entrance procession, offertory, communion and the exit. (The origins of the 4-hymn sandwich). However, it was forbidden to sing the ordinary of the mass or any translation of the propers.

For examples of hymns sung early in the 20th century, see the St. Gregory Hymnal:
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=C-oiAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&authuser=0&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA29

Pax!
When I attend the Extraordinary form of the Mass I can look up before hand what will be sung. When I attend the Ordinary form of the Mass I can't really do that. When you have congregational singing (I am aware that EF also have congregational singing) you really can't know the hymns/chants before hand. Maybe I am simplifying things here a bit but you get it. How do you solve this problem (unless you're the church musician)?

So! It was Pius XIIth who burdened us and besmirched our liturgy with the commentator, and, I suppose, by extension, 'song leaders', greeters, and such!

His idea of commentator was quite different that the improvised schmaltz too common amongst boomer-generation clergy today.
Song leaders and greeters have no relevance per his directives.

a) The role of commentator should properly be carried out by a priest or at least a cleric. If none is available, a layman of good Christian character, and well instructed in his duties may fill the role. Women, however, may never act as commentator; in case of necessity, a woman would be permitted only to lead the prayers, and singing of the congregation.

...

c) The explanations and directions to be given by the commentator should be prepared in writing; they should be brief, clear, and to the point; they should be spoken at a suitable time, and in a moderate tone of voice; they should never interfere with the prayers of the priest who is celebrating. In short, they should be a real help, and not a hindrance to the devotion of the congregation.

...

f) The commentator should follow the celebrant closely, and so accompany the sacred action that it is not delayed or interrupted, and the entire ceremony carried out with harmony, dignity, and devotion



Seems like he was just driving at assisting the faithful in understanding what's going on, their understanding leading to more "active participation" in the devotional (not external/physical/busybody) sense (the only "external participation" being their proper participation from the pews). Perhaps other means might be more effective in fostering a deeper understanding of the mass, but that's not the point of this thread ... it was his mention of congregational singing, and that predates VII.

Ryand -
Thanks for your clarifications, but still - inserting what is essentially catechesis into the mass is wrong, out of place, and an inherent distraction from the spiritual and inviolable continuum of the ritual text. The place for catechesis is in the school classroom or at special teaching series on week-day evenings. It is absurdly incredable that Catholics should have to be told what is going on during mass during mass.

As in all things, there are exceptions to rules, whether official or presumed such as have been shared here.
I, too, made clear distinctions between the role of a clerical MC at an episcopal Mass and my distant memories of lay commentators.
But, when our parish was graced with the assignment of a retired (and native to our city) monsignor, I finally encountered the exemplar extraordinaire (unintended) of the value of a cleric (who's forgotten more about liturgy under four missals than we know now) who makes great use of the needed occasion to contextualize scriptures and rituals without didacticism or excessive time-taking. His insights are spectacular and well-received by the PIPs, deacons and other liturgical personnel, whether at Mass or otherwise.

'Hymns' sung in the Byzantine liturgy are fixed liturgical texts, not extraneous songs chosen by a music director.

Some appear in every liturgy, such as
-- "Only begotten Son and Word of God", analogous to the Gloria;
-- the Hirmos (a Marian salutation sung shortly after the epiclesis),
-- "Make me this day a sharer in your mystical supper...", analogous to the "Domine, non sum dignus".

Some are proper, such as:
-- "Triumphant Leader, to you belongs our prize of victory", the kontakion for the Annunciation.

CharlesW ... Hospodi pomilui. :)

I can hardly wait until Easter for the exchange:

Khristos voskres' ... voistino voskres'

I've spent quite a few Easters at a Ukrainian Catholic Church ... one of my sons was even baptized (and hence confirmed) in a Ukrainian Catholic Church baptism. One of my biggest joys was to be the cantor for a wedding in that church.

Indeed He will be risen day after tomorrow, at least in terms of this year's Pascha celebration. LOL.

We are fortunate to have both a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church and a Byzantine Catholic Church in America in my city. Many places don't have two Byzantine churches.

I will say that, as CharlesW says, hymns aren't going anywhere, and, with Jackson, that they should be done properly, realizing that could be a pun, and hastening to add I didn't mean it.

However, I must even more heartily second Jackson's comment about the pause at the end of each line. Yes, I was raised Protestant, and for hymns to be effective, they do need to have a musical flow and, please, a pause at the end of each line. Listen to Ralph Vaughan-Williams. He printed them into his hymnals so people could get it right, and spoke most sternly on the topic in the introduction to Songs of Praise with Music. (Love that title.)

I was surprised when we sang When I Survey The Wondrous Cross. Lowell Mason's magnificent melody would fit in nicely into a Catholic Mass. Alas, the editors of our Catholic hymnal felt a need to show...what, exactly? That "we" are not like "them?" (By "them," I mean anything less liturgical than the Anglicans.) I guess something like that, so we sang the melody that is normally used in England. It does NOT fit in so well with a Catholic liturgy.

Earlier, we did the tune I normally associate with O, The Deep, Deep Love of Jesus, entitled Ebenezer or Ton-y-botel, but with different lyrics. One website refers to it as a "profound, rolling tune," which it most emphatically is. We sang it double time without any pauses. It did not roll. It was not profound.

So, they are here to stay. Choose them wisely, do them musically, and, please, let Ton-y-botel roll in waves across the Church so that it may profoundly affect the congregation as they sing.

Kenneth

Of course, Jackson, it could be HOW we sang Rockingham, with perhaps too much emphasis on the "rock," as in rocking right along. No pause, no nothing. That said, I think Mason's is the better tune, exactly because it appeals to something basic in us. I will give Rockingham another listen. Mason's point was to make singing accessible to congregations, a good one, I think. That said, the overall point remains: choose the hymns correctly, do them right, and they don't seem so "non-Catholic."

On something like those triplets, the congregation seems to find its own natural way of doing them. Rather than aim for precision in timing, I follow along with what they are doing and everyone is happy.