Seeking Advice for Touchy Subject
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    If I'm by myself I don't sing usually. If I have to sing the psalm by myself, especially when I know that will be the situation I will normally sing a cappella and chant using a psalm and reciting tone. I can do this from straight out of the Missalette if the melody for the response is provided.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Right. My point was that a cantor is necessary and that putting them in the loft isn't ideal.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I am talking about compass directions. As an easterner, I don't believe in liturgical east to begin with. That is a Latin custom I never understood. There is only one east where the sun rises, and the people and priest face it during Divine Liturgy. If it was good enough for Constantine and St. Helena...

    Because of street placement and building siting, the main altar faces compass west. The choir loft is under the rose window at the eastern end of the building, which fronts on the street.

    My cantors are in the loft where they can stay with the instrument, I can hiss at them if they sing part of the wrong verse, and can signal to them if something is not right. I keep them close at hand where I can keep them focused. (I don't quite have Florence Foster Jenkins but some days am not that far removed from her.) LOL.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Well, the loft isn't so bad for cantors and I suppose there is an aspect of the situation that would have to be considered for any one specific church. I'm both venues where I am, a cantor in the loft would work just as well as one down front. Down front is easier because that's also where I am when playing. My point is that they don't absolutely have to be visible and at least in my situations can be heard very well from the loft.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Fine, you are right, there could be situations like Charles has where it is necessary or situations where it can work. I just think that ideally, the "voice of oz unseen" type thing isn't necessary or ideal.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    I have not had much success with cantors down front a half a block away from the organ. It is difficult to stay together and there is always the cantor who wants to be cute and perform. But the deal clincher was when the pastor said to get them out of the sanctuary and put them in the loft.
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Maybe the priest and lectors should be in the loft too. Don't want them "performing."

    Yeah, some of them should.
    But if you have a competent cantor the option of "turning around and yelling" is a strawman.
    The question was where to put the cantor, and many people, I think, are saying ambo for psalm, out of sight for everything else. If a church is well constructed the loft may be ideal.
    Cantors who need mics when the acoustics of the building don't require it are another matter still. They might have some other calling.
    In my experience recruiting volunteer cantors for a situation where they are not very visible brings out a drastically better and more talented corps of singers than for a situation where they are front and center all the time.
    YMMV.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Cantors who need mics when the acoustics of the building don't require it are another matter still.


    This is often not the cantor's fault.

    A PIP approaches the MD at the back (West) of the Nave.

    PIP: We need microphone's in here!

    MD, walking slowly away: But the acoustic is so loud that a pin drop sounds like a cannon being fired.

    PIP: I can't hear anything that anybody says during Mass!

    MD, speaking softer, halfway up the aisle: That sounds like a real problem. Do you have some kind of hearing loss?

    PIP: Not that I know of, I mean - I guess I could get it checked out.

    MD, three quarters of the way up the aisle, almost whispering: No, no - you'd notice in other times if it was a problem. I just wanted to be sure it was really us that was the issue.

    PIP: It certainly is. I can hear fine at the movies and when my wife calls me on the phone from upstairs.

    MD, now inside the sanctuary, with his back turned, whispering: Could be a problem, then. I'll start looking into it. By the way, where do you sit, usually?

    PIP: We always like to sit near the back.

    MD: Yeah - you know - you're probably right about this. Several other people who sit in that area have complained of the exact same thing.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen G barreltone Ben
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Paix, your rationale makes perfect sense.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    My point is that it is folly and a straw man in itself to constantly talk about cantors "performing." They proclaim scripture. And if you are using some setting of the propers, then they are proclaiming scripture at communion and the entrance procession too. You wouldn't proclaim the gospel or other readings from the loft would you?

    And my church has 4 seconds of reverb. And my cantors need to be miked. I wouldn't hear or understand them if they weren't miked. And they are professional cantors. What counted for good sound 200 years ago when we (they) had no choice doesn't count for good sound today.

    Choirs are a different matter as they are by definition comprised of more persons.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I should add that I discourage them from singing into the mic on hymns. But verses that are solo, things the congregation doesn't know, etc. Then yes, they are on a mic.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Well, for high feast days etc. they would engage as many as six cantors for the Mass. I agree about mic use when solo. For hymns, I suggest starting strong and then back off when the faithful have picked up the tune. Again, individual situations will require different solutions in many cases, and there may very well be more than one solution that works and works well.
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    A PIP approaches the MD at the back (West) of the Nave.

    Going way off topic (that's a problem of mine lately, sorry...) this incident actually occurred, regarding the numbers on the hymn board.
    There were two hymn boards, one on the bottom step leading in to the sanctuary on the south side of the church, the other actually in the now unused pulpit on the north side.
    I was standing in the aisle on the south side of the nave when a parishioner approached.

    I can't read those hymn numbers!

    (Which numbers, m'am?)

    (pointing at the board in the pulpit) Those numbers!!

    (Perhaps you could sit closer. Where do you usually sit?)

    (pointing to a pew on the south side) Right there.

    (Pointing to the hymn board on the south side) (Oh. Can you read those?)

    Well, of course, but (pointing to the board on the north side) I can't read those!

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Ben
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    She suspected you were posting the SECRET HYMN NUMBERS on the other board...

    Keeping them from her.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Ben
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Ssh, MJM!
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I can no longer remain silent on this key issue.
  • M. Jackson, I agree about the choir up front.

    However, I'll go a step further, and say that it is also unseemly for women without headcoverings to sing in choir up front dressed identically to men (unisex - which can also be a problem with those who favour female acolytes). This is something I find some anglican (and also particular personal ordinariate) churches are known to do. It can be an odd mix of innovative liberalism and ancient traditions.

    Inconsistency is hard to avoid.

    Some would go another step and not want women to sing in choir at all.

    And even now, some Oriental Orthodox Churches have women stand on one half of the nave and men stand on the other side. Gender separation is a very important practice to reinstitute today, in this age of gender confusion.


    Encyclical Promulgated on December 25, 1955

    Schola Cantorum

    99. It is highly desirable that a choir or schola cantorum be established in all cathedral churches, in parish churches, and all other churches of importance where the liturgical functions can be carried out as described in paragraph 93a, and c.

    100. Wherever such a choir cannot be organized, a choir of the faithful, either mixed or consisting only of women or girls, can be permitted. But such a choir should take its place outside the sanctuary or Communion rail. The men should be separated from the women or girls so that anything unbecoming may be avoided. Local Ordinaries are to issue precise reg ">

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I've never thought of that!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    an odd mix of innovative liberalism and ancient traditions


    You just described my wardrobe, my favorite breakfast cereal, my Pandora playlist, and my preferred approach to liturgical programing.
    Thanked by 1barreltone
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Exactly what types of things that are "unbecoming" are happening in choirs between men and women on Sunday morning?

    And while I know the legalists are going to scream about principles of canon law and the fact that this was never changed and so it remains in full force, it's a little hard to take seriously a 1955 document that is so "stale" that it doesn't - and due to date couldn't possibly - take into account the Second Vatican Council, everything that has happened since then, and a host of other more recent documents, some of which are probably at odds with said 1955 document.

    Cherry picking points from relics of the past to support our point of view is a dangerous thing.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    it's a little hard to take seriously a 1955 document that is so "stale" that it doesn't - and due to date couldn't possibly - take into account the Second Vatican Council, everything that has happened since then, and a host of other more recent documents


    While I think the issue is ridiculous, and that issues of choral sexual identity are totally goofy, I also have to point out:

    Nothing about The Second Vatican Council (that I'm aware of) addressed the need for men and women to specifically sit together while singing, nor do I think any more recent documents have much to say on the matter one way or the other.

    The people who lobby on behalf of imposed and universal acceptance of their own notions of equality and fairness annoy me approximately the same amount as the people who lobby on behalf of imposed and universal acceptance of their own notions of propriety and tradition.

    (Thankfully, both types of people seem to be much more prevalent on the internet than in real life. This makes real life much easier to deal with, and also provides fertile ground for my particular style of humor on the internet, where it is much more prevalent as well.)
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I agree with everything you've said here Adam.

    I didn't mean to imply that Vatican II legislated something specifically that obliterates that; what I meant is that using that 1955 document for liturgy today would be like using a 1955 road map to navigate the suburb in which I live - a suburb which experienced explosive growth in the 1960's and significant changes in the 1970's and 1980's. Such a roadmap wouldn't be very useful for getting around the city!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    FWIW, that passage reflected a particular application of canon law (that was most widely observed in its breach) that passed into oblivion in 1983, whereby men and women were generally supposed to be seated apart in the congregation as well.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Ah there we go. Thanks Liam! I knew that something about that didn't sound right, in terms of it still even technically being on the books.