Missa de Angelis
  • SteveBosworth
    Posts: 34
    Is this appropriate for Lent? I've read that it was/is more suited to Feasts/Solemn masses. We did the ICEL Chant Mass for Advent, so I'd like to do another familiar one for Lent and possibly through the end of the year.

    Thanks for you expert help!
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    This Ordinary is pretty melismatic as far as Ordinaries go which traditionally indicates a more joyous and festive occasion. If I were you, I would definitely reserve it for Easter and use Jubilate Deo. Though, as I'm typing this, I'm realizing the Ordinary assigned to Lenten Sundays in the 1961 Graduale (XVII) is far more melismatic than I would have expected it to be while the feria ordinary is appropriately syllabic. Does anyone know why this is? I suspect my understanding here needs some adjustment.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Steve,

    Save Missa de Angelis. Mass XVII is listed for Advent and Lent.

    You can tell Missa de Angelis shouldn't be used for Lent because it has a Gloria in Excelsis Deo, if we leave all other considerations aside.

    Thanked by 1Ben
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    bkenney, do the proper chants (Introit, Gradual, Tract, Offertory, Communio) of Lent contain less melismas than Ordinary Time? No.

    Chant is chant, and Sunday is Sunday. Lent has some different characteristics (no organ music, no alleluia, and in most cases no Gloria), but elaborate chants still exist for Lent. Most people are also shocked to see that Lent contains so many "major" sounding chants - thinking that the season should be full of minor-modes.

    In an ideal world, Advent and Lent would be full of Mass XVII with its major modes (with the exception of one of the Kyries) and melismas.
    Thanked by 3JulieColl Ben Ralph Bednarz
  • Arthur Connick
    Posts: 496
    There is no rule saying you can't sing Missa de Angeles at Sunday Mass in Lent, and it is not inappropriate per se. Therefore it would be appropriate if your particular circumstances recommend it.

    Mass 17 is suggested for Advent and Lent in the Kyriale, but it is not a hard and fast rule. Also, you have the flexibility to select different parts of the ordinary from different Masses. For example you could sing the Kyrie from de Angeles and the Sanctus and Agnus Dei from ICEL.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I wanted to do something other than Mass XVII this year, so we're singing Mass VI Rex Genitor for the Gesima Sundays and the first two Sundays of Lent and the very simple DuMont's Missa Regia III (mode 6) for the rest of Lent (attached below).

    (The first is 17th c. notation and the second is modern notation. Accompaniment may be found in this Polish Kyriale on pdf p. 111.)

    Mass VI Rex Genitor may, of course, be found here.
    Messe Royale in 6th tone.pdf
    2M
    Missa Regia III (6th tone).pdf
    638K
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I know of one church that only uses Mass VIII on Gaudete and Laetare Sundays and never uses it the rest of the year.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl Ben
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    We use Mass VIII very sparingly: for Christmas and the Feast of the Circumcision since I suffer from Missa de Angelis overload disorder. It's too bad since it is a beautiful Mass---or at least it was the first 10000 times I heard it.
    Thanked by 3Arthur Connick futurefatherz lautzef
  • SteveBosworth
    Posts: 34
    Thanks for all the comments and direction. I'm going to play it very safe and stick with the ICEL, in Latin. I'm walking on egg shells at my parish by reintroducing the Propers and using chant. I have to "spoon - feed" the pip's by introducing things a little at a time.
    Thanked by 1aria
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    My schola began with mass VIII, but now we are finally moving on. I hope to use it as Julie does: Christmas and possibly Christmas season. May also pull it out in a situation where the congregation would want to sing. But short of that, I'm very happy to be moving away from it, as is our celebrant. It's waaaay overused...lovely music, but overused.
  • aria
    Posts: 85
    I'm right there with you SteveBosworth... we're going to the Kyrie XVI (in Greek), the Agnus Dei XVIII (in Latin), and the Sanctus XVIII (in English). And this will likely cause somewhat of a stir but we'll be able to "get away with it" b/c it's Lent and the PIPs are prepared for things to be "a little different". It's my goal that one day (maybe next year?), we'll do that Sanctus in Latin. Baby steps!
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    matthewj - thanks for the clarification.m there seems to be a lot of misinformation out there and I'm aware that I have fallen victim to some of it. That's why I rely on you folks to keep me in line! (And why, usually any advice I give is usually accompanied by a disclaimer. :P)
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    We use Mass VIII very sparingly: for Christmas and the Feast of the Circumcision since I suffer from Missa de Angelis overload disorder. It's too bad since it is a beautiful Mass---or at least it was the first 10000 times I heard it.


    Is this, perhaps, a reason to use Missa de Angelis in Lent: one needs a certain amount of voluntary suffering? (Yes, I mean that as a serious question.)
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    image
    Thanked by 1Jamie
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Julie, agreed in toto:
    We use Mass VIII very sparingly: for Christmas and the Feast of the Circumcision since I suffer from Missa de Angelis overload disorder. It's too bad since it is a beautiful Mass---or at least it was the first 10000 times I heard it.


    I keenly feel Grumpy Cat's disapproval.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    I have heard more than once that parishes will use the ICEL or Jubilate Masses during Advent and Lent because chant is austere and mournful and fits the season. Except for Ash Wednesday, Good Friday, and maybe the 1st Sunday of Lent I do not find Lent fulfilled by mournful austere music. Lent for me is face to face encounter with Jesus in his most challenging and inspiring moments. They require an intense focus prepared by more fasting and stepped up prayer during every moment. The intensity of the Gospel message becomes focused like a strong accent in chant which demands melisma to exhaust all that energy. Thinking of continuing Mass 8 thru Lent too.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen noel jones, aago JulieColl tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,093
    FWIW, as a matter of historical context, the Mass was typically used for dead infants (children who died before attaining the age of reason, for whom there was of course no Requiem Mass as such). Hence the frequency of its use and familiarity in times past (and its familiarity was why it got heavily employed in the attempt to revive chanted ordinaries at a popular level). Was something akin to the Lenten white of the ordinaries, one might be tempted to say.

    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    How good a problem it is that any Gregorian Ordinary is used so much that it has become tedious!
    Thanked by 4Ben CHGiffen bkenney27 BruceL
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    How good a problem it is that any Gregorian Ordinary is used so much that it has become tedious!


    Except Mass XVIII, which has been tedeous for the past 1500 years.
    Thanked by 2BruceL JulieColl
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I use ICEL because it is assigned to Advent/Lenten ferias. Not Sundays, granted, but that's the closest I can come to using the recommended ordinary for the time being. I was recently taught here that whether or not it "sounds like" the season has no bearing on whether or not it is appropriate.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    You also have to be conscious of your situation: if you're in a parish where chant isn't done frequently, and your Pastor emphasizes congregational singing, you don't want to change things too frequently.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    Salieri: Mass VIII is much more recent than 1500 years; in fact some would say it isn't true Gregorian chant as it wasn't composed at the same time as the main corpus of chant. It really dates from the XVth-XVIth century.

    I too have Mass VIII overload disorder. Finally though, FINALLY, our choirmaster has graduated us to Kyrie XIB for Ordinary Time though we still use Gloria VIII when a Gloria is called for (as well as Credo III which is of the same vintage). We use Kyrie XVIIC for Advent and Lent. It is the slightly more melismatic of the 3 Kyries of Mass XVII. The local abbey generally reserves it for Gaudete and Laetare Sundays.

    Alas Mass VIII is what most folks know in our small city parishes, and we encourage the congregation to join in for the ordinary chants; Kyrie XIB does seem to go over well though.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    Mass XVIII, which has been tedeous for the past 1500 years.

    I thought only the Te Deum was tedious.
    Doing the Kyrie of XVIII for the first time today, I found it anything but tedious. The rest, yes, a bit. I'm more annoyed by seeing the Sanctus in the ICEL Mass, since it always says 'death" to me. Not a bad context for today.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    OraLabora: I did, in fact, mean Mass XVIII (Deus genitor alme/Defunctorum), not VIII (de Angelis). Mass XVIII is most certainly authentic, and is also, most certainly, over-used---at least in Novus Ordo parishes, where it is usually the only chant ordinary one might be able to hear.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Alas Mass VIII is what most folks know in our small city parishes


    Nobody in my area knows it, or if they do, they're not singing it. Gregorian chant hasn't been heard in regular parishes in my area for several decades (possibly 4 or 5? coincidence?) The way some priests talk around here, heaven forbid you to do a Gregorian ordinary.
  • OraLabora
    Posts: 218
    Salieri: Oops, must be these darned cheap Costco reading glasses. Sorry about that! You're right XVIII is also overused, our schola uses Sanctus and Angus XVIII most of the time. The only advantage with that, is that all the choristers know them by heart, so we can actually watch the choirmaster direct us when we chant them :-)
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • lautzef
    Posts: 69
    I am coming in late so this comment refers to some of the earlier messages in this thread talking about what sounds mournful and minor, or joyful and major - if you look at medieval and Renaissance motets, and also a lot of the chant, it's not hard to see that what we consider major/happy-sounding nowadays was used for some of the most penitential and/or mournful texts in the liturgy (e.g., settings of Rex autem David/Montes Gelboae or Vae Babylon, the Kyrie of the Missa pro defunctis). At the same time, some of the very joyful texts are set to what we would consider "minor keys" nowadays (e.g. O filii et filiae, Veni Sancte Spiritus). Lenten and penitential chants are also not any more syllabic than the joyful ones - viz., Collegerunt for Palm Sunday, possibly one of the most intricate chants in all of the liturgy, while Resurrexi is one of the simplest. (Yet they are so incredibly appropriate to their texts.)

    Musical esthetics are not really as static as we tend to assume they are. That's why it's best to just go with what's there and instead of trying to mold them to our esthetic, go where they lead and discover what new and unexplored things you can learn. Of course this has to be balanced with what brings the message across to the people in the pews, but they can learn too.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    viz., Collegerunt for Palm Sunday, possibly one of the most intricate chants in all of the liturgy,


    Yikes. I was actually looking it over last night in anticipation for Palm Sunday. Best to start practicing it now. What a lovely roller coaster ride it is.
Add a Comment