When does Christmas actually end?
  • I'm a little puzzled at the moment about when does the actual Christmas Season end. I note that in the Divine Office Christmastide I is before Epiphany and Christmastide II is after Epiphany, but when is it all over? I'm given to understand that traditionally, Candlemas (Feb 2nd) was considered the end of the Christmas Season as this marked the ritual purification of Our Lady.

    However, some seem to insist that it ends on Epiphany (Jan 6th). In Australia, Epiphany is celebrated on the Sunday which falls between the 2nd and 8th of January.

    Basically, I need to know when I really should pack up all the Christmas music.
  • I had this discussion with Fr. recently. It technically ends at sundown on the feast of Baptism of the Lord. Then beginning with Monday, it is Ordinary Time.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • I was also under the impression that it ends at the Baptism of the Lord.
  • Since (cravenly) the Solemnity of the Epiphany has in many places been moved to the nearest Sunday, insouciant havoc has been played with the millenial twelve days of Christmas. While lamenting yet another example of cultural loss foisted off on us by the 'I can't go to mass, even a solemnity, on a week day' crowd (and the 'dear me, we mustn't ask them to' bishops), we can take some pleasure in the resulting longer Christmastide. Not now limited to twelve days, we have several months of Christmastide ending on Purification. So, now you can't take your tree down until 2nd February, and you have to make all that candy and fruitcake last for six weeks, and you have to be thankful, prayerful and merry for the whole forty days of Christmas!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I'd favor a Christmastide that ran until the Purification, Jackson, but in the Land of the New Calendar, Boring Ordinary Time begins "after the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord", or so says my breviary.
  • Alright, Baptism it is. Christmas hath, then, fewer than forty but more than twelve days of natal merriment, the last day being 'a moveable feast'. Our current Christmas has nineteen days in which to give one's true love presents.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    As Father Vasiliy would indicate, the New Calendarist Heretics celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25th Gregorian while Christians of the True Faith celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25th Julian, which happens to be Jan. 7th Gregorian, and is celebrated until Epiphany, the end of the 12 days of Christmas. Is everyone hopelessly confused now? LOL.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    OK... the length of days may differ with each of you, but we ALL celebrate the Nativity of the Lord! So, for as long as you can stretch the celebration, DO IT!!!! Because the feast day certainly deserves every moment you can scrape together for the occasion.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Amen! I celebrate it twice - Dec. 25th Gregorian and Dec. 25th Julian. Works for me!
  • Interesting info about Candlemas being the end of the Christmas season:
    http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/History/candlemas.htm

    In "Upon Candlemas Day," Herrick wrote:

    "END now the white loaf and the pie,
    And let all sports with Christmas die."
    Thanked by 1veromary
  • The Breviary says after II Vespers of the Baptism of The Lord. I believe traditionally the Christmas cycle ended on Candlemas, Feb. 2nd, with Christmastide and Epiphanytide as "sub-seasons".
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    At least for the Ordinary Form, it ends with Baptism of the Lord. I would also be in favor of the church extending Christmastide until Candlemas, but what can you do? I would also favor the feast of Candlemas being celebrated during our existing Christmastide over the Baptism.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    TRADDIES GET MORE CHRISTMAS.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Today is the Octave day of Christmas, but we also have the 12 days of Christmas! so our celebrations can go on for a few days more!

    Also we have the (former) octave of the Epiphany, so we have another week. This would end on the Octave day of the Epiphany, also known as the Baptism of our Lord.

    We would usually sing Christmas music until the vigil of the Epiphany, then we would sing Epiphany music during the Octave.

    The Second Sunday after Epiphany WAS at one time the Feast of The Holy Name, so why not sing Jesu Dulcis etc. We usually sing things in honour of The Holy Name.

    The Third Sunday after Epiphany WAS in some places the Feast of the Holy Family so why not some of the Hymns to the Holy Family, O lux beata...

    Of course the Season of Christmas ends on the Feast of Candlemas, and this year Deo gratis this falls on a Sunday after Epiphany rather than in Septuagesima, so we can all enjoy this Feast on a Sunday!

    The Feast of the Flight into Egypt is a aliquibus locis (this was celebrated in England!) on the 17th of February. So perhaps we can enjoy our Christmas a few days more! well at least until the season of Septuagesima starts!
    Thanked by 2expeditus1 CHGiffen
  • In the new calendar, the Feast of the Holy Family is the Sunday in the Octave of Christmas. Does the Feast of the Holy Name still exist in any form?
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Yes, on January 3.

    Christmastide ends with second vespers on Baptism of the Lord. Then commences the first week per annum or of ordinary [ordinally counted] time. The next Sunday is the Sunday of the second such week of time. It's the weeks that are counted, not the Sundays as such, so the shorthand that's come into English usage is misleading.
  • Is the true meaning of Groundhog Day that Bill Murray gets to celebrate Christmas forever?
    Thanked by 1Chris Allen
  • Not unless Christmas is running through until February these days. :-)
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I think this topic is covered quite well in Dickens.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Great existential question, Andrew! Dunno the answer save for he learns quite quickly not to fall into the icy pothole everytime Ned accosts him on the street!

    The great unspoken-of aspect of this-I believe carols should be retired at Epiphany though. (Running away from any vegetables or cows lobbed my way.)
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I always close Baptism with Joy to the World. Other than that, there aren't any carols for that Liturgy. Joy to the World expresses the Christmas joy of the savior coming without actually talking about the "infant" or "newborn" King so I find it very fitting for Baptism! Thoughts on that?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Read the blessing of the groundhog on Candlemas in "The Cantor Wore Crinolines." They combined two holidays into, "St. Groundelmas." Hilarious!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    "Joy to the World?" Sure, why not! I am using, "When John Baptized by Jordan's River," (Rendez A Dieu) and 'Lift High the Cross." "Joy to the World" works just as well, I would think.
  • A good translation of Christ, unser Herr, zum Jordan kam is good for baptism, and would work well with Winchester New. Also there is the office hymn for II Vespers of Baptism of the Lord: Implente munus debitum, with an outstanding English translation by our forum friend, the anonymous MHI (look it up on previous threads from June and July). Number 296 of The Hymnal 1982 is also good, sung to Engleberg.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Don't forget Songs of Thankfulness and Praise.
  • How appropriate is "On Jordan's Bank?" I have heard it used on the Baptism of the Lord before but didn't know if it fit or not.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    If you're interested in the backstory on the author of the lyrics of On Jordan's Bank:

    https://www.rockhurst.edu/media/filer_private/2012/01/06/newsletter19.pdf
  • On Jordan's Bank is very appropriate, I'd say.

    I used to use it for the Baptism of the Lord, but since we got Worship IV there is a nice text in there set to the same tune called "When Jesus Came to be Baptized," which, you know, seemed even more appropriate.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    While the hymn "On Jordan's Bank" refers to the site of Jesus' baptism, it really is not a hymn about Jesus' baptism per se but, rather, about John's preaching of repentance and readying our hearts to prepare for the coming of the Lord.

    Correction to what PGA wrote: the hymn for the Baptism of the Lord to which he refers is Alan Hommerding's "To Jordan Jesus Humbly Came," set to WINCHESTER NEW. Not only is it in W4; it's also in a number of WLP publications. Fine text.

    There is no hymn entitled "When Jesus Came to Be Baptized" in W4. There is the hymn "When Jesus Came to Jordan," by Fred Pratt Green and set to MERLE'S TUNE. Also there is "When John Baptized by Jordan’s River," by Timothy Dudley-Smith and set to RENDEZ À DIEU; this latter hymn is found in a number of denominational hymnals.
  • Thank you, Father. I did indeed mean "to Jordan Jesus humbly came." I think the one I erroneously mentioned is an actual ocp text that is not very good but whose title stuck with me.
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    Yes, "When Jesus Comes to Be Baptized" is the text set to WINCHESTER NEW in Breaking Bread, for what it's worth.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    It's also in the Canadian hymnal CBWIII
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I highly recommend the hymn O Seas and Rivers, Bless the Lord, from my CanticaNOVA collection. Try singing it to Morning Song.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    From 2009: Christmas is over at the Vatican, noting a change in practice which occurred in that year.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    I will do my annual bleat about the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord: it's not just about the Baptism of the Lord as an act. It is also the first full theophany: the manifestation to the world of the three Persons of the Most Holy Trinity. That's the key to its importance in all of the Eastern churches. (Just as Paschaltide ends with a Trinitarian solemnity in the East - Pentecost is THE Trinitarian feast, not just about the Holy Spirit - so too Christmastide.) So hymns treating the mystery the Trinity are very apt for the feast in the West, too. The feast is relatively underdeveloped in the West, and still developing in the past century.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen hilluminar
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I usually do 'Of the Father's heart begotten' on the Baptism.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    ITT: New Calenderist Heretics.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    My Byzantine friends tell me it is not good form to leave my Christmas tree up beyond the beginning of Lent. My tree is something of a joke with them, anyway. I take it out of the box, fold the branches down, and plug it in - it is already decorated. Putting it away is just the reverse.

  • CharlesW -
    SO then!
    You are adMITting it!!!???
    You have a Christmas tree simulacrum????
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    YES!!!! It goes well with the plastic reindeer.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    " O Simulacrum, Simulacrum, we bow to thy convenience!
    Foil or plastic, still fantastic, a symbol and achievement.
    Erectable in little time, candles' fragrance emits pine.
    O Simulacrum stand ye fine, those trees of yore are left behind."

    Copyright Charles D. Culbreth, Jan.2, 2014, all rights reserved.
    Oops, now I'm obsolete!
  • The USCCB calendar is green for January 13th. Looks like my Nativity will come down on Sunday night and the ornaments replaced with hearts for St.Valentine's Day, then replaced by shamrocks for St. Patrick's Day. Oh.......forgot the "He is Risen" ornaments for Easter!!!