Nocturnale Romanum is available
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,176
    Occasionally forum users ask if the Nocturnale Romanum book (2001) by Holger Peter Sandhofe is still available for purchase, so I sent a note to the publisher Christof Schroeder. He has closed his publishing firm and on-line store, but still has a few dozen copies of the book left for private sale. Interested readers wishing to buy a copy can contact him at the e-mail address cns at hartker.com . (And feel free to write in English.)
  • benstoxbenstox
    Posts: 23
    I didn't receive a reply from this man when I emailed a few weeks ago, so maybe I missed the boat on this one. There isn't any other known way of obtaining a copy, by any chance?
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 362
    (Does anyone know if and how legal issues were addressed?)
    Thanked by 1JonathanKK
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    I would message Olivier Berten ...

    I wonder who holds the copyright, the publisher?
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 362
    First of all, the author's heirs.
  • ©2002 Hartker Verlag Christof Nikolaus Schröder

  • Anyone knows if this book can still be purchased in printed form? Thanks in advance!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,176
    That's a different and new book, for anyone who hasn't seen that listing before.
  • So, does anyone know if this book can be still be purchased in printed form? (or someone who has it a would like to sell it) Thanks in advance!
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    I have checked abebooks, Amazon and google, and they have no results. So at the moment it is unavailable.
  • benstoxbenstox
    Posts: 23
    In 2014 I did manage to purchase a copy directly from Christof Schroeder eventually. At the time he had only intermittent internet access, the remaining copies were in storage, and he did not have ready access to them, so it took several weeks to arrange but I did get it in the end. If you haven't tried him, it may be worth it: info at hartker dot com was the email I used for him at that time.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw Julio_Garrido
  • Thank you for this information. I will certainly try!
  • I really wonder how many people currently have on their shelves the primary books for the Ordinary Form Divine Office … to sing.
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 362
    @Dixit_Dominus_44 What do you mean by "the primary books for the Ordinary Form Divine Office"?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    @igneus Well primary books for the EF Office is the Antiphonale Romanum, of course the Nocturnale was never published, but the L.U. has Matins for feasts. So everything you need can be found in 2 books at most.

    The Liber is still in print so many people have a primary book for singing the EF Office for most days of the year... Remind me how many books we need to sing the OF office.
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 362
    @tomjaw For Sunday and festal Vespers a single one: the "Antiphonale Romanum II", Solesmes 2009.

    For anything else Liber hymnarius (Solesmes 1983) + Ordo cantus officii + Hesbert's Corpus antiphonalium officii (and some understanding of it's contents) + access to a bunch of medieval manuscripts (and some understanding of their various notation systems).
    And you still have to compose set the responsoria brevia to music yourself.

    Or you take Les heures gregoriennes - which are, AFAIK, not up to date with the current Ordo cantus officii, and don't contain the Office of Readings.

    Or you decide to chant the OF Divine Office in the vernacular and you are instantly happy: there are a few languages with a complete vernacular antiphonale. Besides the English one there is one in German; a Portuguese one in two volumes (haven't seen it in person); and there is also a very poor one in Czech, by yours truly.
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  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 362
    * I forgot to mention multiple 20th century chant editions, also required for the "Ordo cantus officii" way.
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  • Is there a means whereby one might be able to download the entire Nocturnale?
  • Or you take Les heures gregoriennes - which are, AFAIK, not up to date with the current Ordo cantus officii, and don't contain the Office of Readings.


    I did an analysis recently and LHG pretty much follows the current Ordo Cantus Officii (2015) for Sundays and weekdays. The Gospel canticle antiphons for Sundays are simplified, only one is provided. The new AR I and II fix that. Where it gets sticky is feasts and solemnities, but again AR I and II fix that. So basically I use LHG supplemented by AR I and II. For the Office of Readings, I created my own Nocturnale from the first edition of the OCO. I had to improvise in a couple of places. I don’t use it much now, I prefer the monastic Vigils practice of recto-Tono if I’m going to chant before 6 am ;)

    Ora
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    The 'Vatican' edition is here, hand notated, https://www.dropbox.com/s/f6v7ms0356l1oax/Nocturnale_Tilburg.pdf?dl=0

    The other option is Gregobase, https://gregobase.selapa.net/source.php?id=23&images=1
    but you will need to download each set of pages and then join them up again.

    These two Nocturnale will differ not only because they have been published in different years but also Peter Holger Sandhof who produced the more recent one did not appear to have access to the 'Vatican' edition. Of course in the Roman rite, it was not normal to sing Matins (apart from major feasts and these are found in the L.U.) and so it was often recited / recto tono from the Breviary.
  • NB: "Vatican", but not a typical edition, so not authoritative in the way that the GR 1908 / AR 1912 are. I guess most of the time people talk about the "Vatican edition", it would be better to say "Vatican typical edition".
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    That is why I wrote 'Vatican' Has anyone found out if there was a typical edition.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • De Musica Sacra (1958) says:

    56. Libri cantus liturgici Ecclesiae Romanae hucusque typice editi sunt:

    Graduale Romanum, cum Ordinario Missae.
    Antiphonale Romanum pro Horis diurnis.
    Officium Defunctorum, Maioris hebdomadae et Nativitatis D. N. Iesu Christi.

    So I think that is about it. But the Holy Week seems to include the Octave of Easter as well, see the edition from 1949 published by H. Dessain, Mechlin, available on CCWatershed HERE.

    Hopefully someday the typical editions of these last three will become available online at some point...
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • I would really like to obtain a Nocturnale, but I haven't gotten any response from the email address listed above, so I am guessing the last copies have been snatched up.

    Does anyone know for sure the copyright status? I tried leaving a comment on Gregobase asking Olivier Berten, but it didn't seem to go through. I know someone who has a copy, and it would be really nice (for society in general) if we could get a good quality scan put online. If copyright isn't an issue, we could just scan one and then people could get their own facsimiles printed. If copyright is an issue, I'd be really interested if anyone has any ideas for what we could do instead.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 245
    The Nocturnale remains a work in progress. An update was posted here a week ago.
    Thanked by 1OMagnumMysterium
  • DCM
    Posts: 70
    Oh wow, I heard about the new Nocturnale project some time ago. Pleased to see there's progress.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    I notice there is no mention on that website of the other Nocturnale... Do they like it less than the Sandhof edition?
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 362
    The impression that the nocturnale of the Vatican basilica receives from the https://nocturnale.marteo.fr/ folks less love than Sandhofe seems to be correct. I'm not sure if this is a principial decision or if it's more about how familiar they are with each of these publications, how much of their contents was readily available at GregoBase etc.

    Btw. the main organizer of the project is quite active at the Breviary and Divine Office Discussion Group Facebook group and the project has been repeatedly discussed there.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Wow, that is quite a project they've got going. Six years is a while to wait though. Also, I'm skeptical of the whole "a book for the future" thing with what appears to me like a preference for a more semiologically inclined edition.

    I guess I should have clarified, I was referring to Sandhofe's Nocturnale. It looks like at least some of the pieces are definitely under copyright, so is it just a no win situation? If they're done printing it, and no one is allowed to reproduce to copies that do exist, is Sandhofe's Nocturnale doomed to just remain an incredibly rare book only had by those who were able to get one in time, or have enough money to buy from anyone who wants to sell the copy they do have at a massive profit?
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  • @OMagnumMysterium
    What worked for me for a year was, using a pdf to have it just printed in 2 Parts. Wasnt exactly pretty, but for private use it did the job. (Thankfully i did get my hands on an original though eventually.)
    Perhaps for better use one could have the ordinary printed alongside both the Propers of Saints and Time, so one wouldnt have to use both books at once. If you want, i could see to getting such pdfs ready.
  • @Julius_Krüger
    That sounds like a wonderful offer, and very kind of you. I could probably get something like that to work rather well, but I wonder if it would be legal. If the book is reprinted in two parts, for an individual's private use, would copyright law allow that? (In the United States)
  • Im not sure about the legality details, but i would insist that the intention of the compiling author is more important than formality issues. (Spirit of the law rather than letter of the law)

    Im 100% sure, Sandhofer made that book in order for it to be prayerfully used, and that he does understand some simple measures taken to access it. It surely wasnt his intent to have the book sink into obscurity and disuse because of the publisher dissolving and not reprinting the Nocturnale.

    Also i actually just noticed, the PDF file has 1352 pages. Ive seen some custom printers allowing up to 1500 pages.
    If you could look around, what english speaking pdf printers you can find, that would be lovely. that way i wouldnt have to edit anything.
    Though i may still need to do some editing. The Pdf source is lacking the propers for Saint Joseph, which i may still need to Photograph from mine and add in, lest there be none at all.

    But do tell me if you want that to begin with. I´d like to know before going through the effort.

    Disclaimer: the pdf file is not the best quality, though imo it is readable enough to be usable, as i have done for a long time.
  • @Julius_Krüger

    Yes, I'd be very happy to get a PDF of the book. I think I know a place that can print it all in one book. And I would really appreciate it if you are able to add any missing parts (like St. Joseph). Also, I think you are right about what Sandhofe would have wanted.

    Thank you very much!
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 362
    Im not sure about the legality details, but i would insist that the intention of the compiling author is more important than formality issues. (Spirit of the law rather than letter of the law)


    Once the author is dead, not only he and his work, but also his heirs must be taken into account. Sandhofe lived in an era when the spirit of free opensource software and other free (libre) content was already well established, but he didn't opt to operate this way, which definitely has something to say on "the intention of the compiling author".
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,726
    @igneus
    But he did have that website that had various resources available to download for free, some had copyright marks others did not.
    The Nocturnale may have needed to be copyright to get it published?

    So who holds the rights to his work and what do they think?