SSPX France and Sacrosanctum Concilium
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Let me be clear: I am not, and nor have I ever been, a member of the Society of St. Pius X, but I have to tell you, their French wing is doing something really wonderful that the rest of the Church should be paying attention to, and the irony of it is that they are actually implementing Sacrosanctum Concilium in a way that is rarely seen in the post-Conciliar liturgical world.

    They're taking the Council's injunction seriously, quite seriously, to teach the faithful to "say or sing in Latin those parts of the Mass that pertain to them." Not only that, they are taking the admirable goals of the pre-conciliar Liturgical Movement, esp. the work of Justine Ward and Dom Beaudoin, et al, by training young children (8 and 9 years old) to sing the full propers of the Graduale Romanum, and, interestingly enough, as you'll see in this video, their young boys' schola is almost entirely directed by a young boy!! What's more, this young schola sings the parts of the Ordinary antiphonally with the congregation---and, from what it looks like, without adult intervention and direction at all.

    http://www.laportelatine.org/mediatheque/videotheque/cacqueray_villepreux_131012_et_13/messe_et_consecration_villepreux_131013.php

    Pope Benedict, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, called for a new Liturgical Movement, precisely because, in his words, the old Liturgical Movement had"been "hijacked." Could it be, mirabile dictu, that it is SSPX France that is leading the way in teaching the faithful to take at long last their proper place in the Mass by singing Gregorian chant as envisioned by both the pre-Conciliar popes and the Second Vatican Council?

    For this, they are to be saluted and emulated, because they are showing us an enlightened paradigm by which the "liturgical reconciliation" so ardently desired by Pope Benedict can finally be realized. In a true example of liturgical progressivism, they are showing us that the EF Latin Mass, when fully actualized, according to the teaching of the popes in the liturgical documents, offers every bit as much participation as does the Ordinary Form (a thought eloquently expressed by the English priest Fr. John Parsons).

    It seems to me that this splendid example of congregational participation should serve as an encouragement to the whole Church and the message is very simple: if SSPX France can do it, so can we!

    Joyeux Noel!
  • Brick by brick, stone by stone.

    Currently, I am working on tearing down a few proverbial walls at a couple of churches and hopefully moving them towards something at least more traditional. It may be another generation before it completely happens, but it is slowly getting there.

    I would hope that many of the SSPX choristers would then later go on to run more choirs in other churches and reform the liturgical programs.

    At the moment, at most of the Latin mass groups are the same people travelling from church to church to sing Gregorian Chant. What needs to happen is that these various places establish their own scholas (funnily enough, also in accordance with Sacrosanctum Concilium) and get chant groups happening independantly.
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  • In most TLMs at which I have assisted the people do not want to sing, still less do they wish to make the responses, and they would thoroughly reject the novusordoizing tendencies of anyone who pushed them to do so. Maybe this represents a regional difference, as I have heard that the dialogue Mass had gained some degree of popularity in (for instance) France before the reforms, whereas in the U.S. it had not. One certainly doesn't see Society priests pushing such novelties here. (Whether that is good or bad depends on your point of view, but in this respect Sacrosanctum Concilium was just echoing things that had long been said by Pius X and Piux XII, among others.)
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  • Interesting, MarkThompson. Born in 1961 as I was (to atheist parents), I have no dog in this fight; but a 1982 book called Rockchoppers, by a left-wing Sydney priest named (I am not making this up) Edmund Campion, makes it clear - in its maliciously entertaining way - that preconciliar Australian Catholic churches, with the exception of a very few cathedrals, were pretty thoroughly Hibernian in their attitude towards music (as to much else).

    By now I imagine copies of Rockchoppers are available on eBay for peanuts. (How widespread the term "rockchoppers" as a pejorative Protestant term for Catholics ever was outside Australia, I can't possibly say. It had died out even in my boyhood, though enough book-buyers in 1982 knew its meaning to ensure for the author big fat royalty payments.)

    As the author makes clear, postwar Austrian, Italian, Maltese, and Polish immigrants to Australia got the shock of their lives when they attempted to persuade the local bishop that it might be nice to have big splashy sung Masses, enthusiastic processions, etc. (To mangle a renowned passage from Thomas Day's Why Catholics Can't Sing, the bishop in question might have borne an exotic European name like Beovich or Henschke but his temperament was pure County Cork.) Let me, if I may, reiterate: I have no dog in that fight.

    A judicious assessment of the latter-day Campion's talents and failings is available here for anyone interested (it has zilch to do with music). It contains the great observation: "Unfortunately the account of the last thirty years is both perfunctory and one-sided. There is even a slight suggestion that he [Campion] tried to be fair earlier in order to be partisan later."

    http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/campionrev.pdf
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Currently, I am working on tearing down a few proverbial walls at a couple of churches and hopefully moving them towards something at least more traditional. It may be another generation before it completely happens, but it is slowly getting there.


    Hartley, sounds like you're doing great things---if only we could clone you and send out 100 Hartley Martins all over the world, it might speed up things up!

    Love what you said @ the SSPX choristers. They will indeed be someday soon a force to be reckoned with! It looks like singing Gregorian chant is as natural to them as breathing. Did you notice that they don't have any music? They're singing the propers and the Ordinary (and it isn't Mass VIII!) entirely by heart.

    The girls singing at Communion show the same naturalness and ease. Goes to show you what amazing things happen when you put children in an enriched and deeply-rooted liturgical environment and culture. It's like watching the rebirth of Catholic Europe.

    RJ, the Hibernian influence is very strong here on Long Island and the local TLM culture is a faithful replica of the typical Irish silent Low Mass paradigm. I've always found it an irony that the official biography of my diocese is entitled "Richly Blessed." There is indeed a great deal of material affluence here and no lack of resources on every level and yet the preconciliar and contemporary liturgy and even the church architecture, except for rare exceptions, is so sadly impoverished.

    Of course, the post-war Baby Boom didn't help matters since there were apparently at one time so many Catholics to be ministered to (not anymore, though!) that sung Masses were allegedly not feasible and then the 70's happened, and any chance for improvement vanished.

    In contrast, the humble SSPX church in France doesn't seem "richly blessed" in material things, but they have it all over us in terms of their spiritual, liturgical and musical expression, and, despite the unfortunate official extra-ecclesial attidude of the SSPX, it is obvious that at least in France they know how to create an environment where young Catholics are able to grow and flourish.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,189
    The conservative wing of France is a fascinating study in many perspectives. Though some are associated with the monarchists and other interesting movements, they are a force for good in France. Even those who do not believe take notice of their actions. They may be the recovery of the Church in France as the mainline is more or less sleeping. The history of Holy Mother Church in France is a rather sad story and the Revolution is still playing out its effects. But the SSPX and others inside the Church are trying and I really appreciate it. Merci Julie!!!!
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  • @Kevin:
    Though some are associated with the monarchists (...), they are a force for good in France.

    Are you saying that eventually monarchists are not a force for good?
    Are you saying monarchy is bad?
    It is the word "though" in your comment which makes me ask you this question... :-) Nothing personal... though.
  • Ted
    Posts: 204
    I agree with Julie. For those few SSPX Masses that I have attended I have been quite impressed with the actual participation by the faithful, and their commitment to placing Gregorian chant in first place at the liturgy. I still vividly remember the occasion when there was this little 7 or 8 year-old boy sitting right behind me, joyfully singing out in perfect Latin with the most angelic voice the ordinary (Mass IV and Credo I), putting to shame everything I had ever heard sung at a so-called "family Mass" in North America.
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  • Mon ami, je suis completement de votre opinion!

    Kevin:

    Given that Christ established a royal priesthood, how could monarchy be a force, by its nature, for anything other than good? Sure there have been bad kings, but there have been sinful laymen also, who act against their nature.

    Now, if you want to pillory democratic tendencies, I'll bring the eggs and tomatoes, the tar, the feathers and whatever else seems appropriate. Consider that the essence of democracy is that truth is decided by votes of the people or their representatives, and that - without the intervention of the church - there is no recourse to self-evident external norms. Then, choose monarchy.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,189
    @ Jacques et al. Apologies for the bad wording. No judgement about the monarchists or their ability to do good , though my French wife has definite opinions about them. I have no dog in that fight as I am not French. However, that is one subject that I was told never to discuss with my in-laws and a discussion in a Paris cafe several years ago resulted in a rather heated discussion that I witnessed that had to be broken up by the police. Alas, apologies for bringing French politics into a sacred music forum. For the sake of marital harmony, I have to say "Vive la revolution."
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Vive le Christ Roi!

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  • @Kevin: No problem.
    For the sake of marital harmony, I have to say "Vive la revolution."

    Ah ah! Sorry for you.
    Please God, keep me away from marr... trouble. :-D

    More seriously, when you look at French History and realize everything went badly wrong since the 1789 Revolution one might consider coming back to monarchy, with Jesus Christ on top.
    And it is true you will find a lot of monarchists and "bourgeois" in the traditional circles. They tend to keep the traditions.
    See, even the traditional French "Forum Catholique" has a Fleur-de-lis as Web page background: http://www.leforumcatholique.org/forum.php
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  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,189
    I certainly agree Jacques. Merci!!!
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    The Anima Christi they sing during(!) communion sounds not too far off from the style of Taize.
  • So, being the curious monarchist that I am, I must ask those who live in England, Canada, etc. - is it still a prevalent custom to sing the "Domine Salvum Fac" after masses?
  • StimsonInRehab, I cannot speak for England or Canada, but I can assure you that before the Second Vatican Council, two things were the case among Australian Catholics:

    (a) They were almost 100% monarchist (the two politicians who stage-managed Elizabeth II's 1954 visit to Sydney were both hard-scrabble Hibernian Catholics: Joe Cahill, New South Wales's Premier; and Patrick Hills, Sydney's Mayor). An Australian equivalent of Teddy Kennedy and Noraid was, and remained, largely unimaginable. Even Melbourne's near-centenarian Hibernomane Archbishop Daniel Mannix - friend of De Valera and the nearest antipodean equivalent to a full-on Provo - was pretty tame stuff by American standards.

    (b) Nevertheless, anyone Australian Catholic who sang the Domine Salvum Fac after a Mass would almost certainly have been escorted to the nearest police station. At the very least it would have been considered as shocking as the kid in the movie Les Choristes who, unaware that Vichy has collapsed, chants "Maréchal, nous voilà!"

    There might, or might not, have been spoken prayers for the Queen (I have seen an Australian missal where such prayers were included). But I have never heard of them being used before 1962, let alone after.
  • @StimsonInRehab: yes we sing the "Domine salvam fac reginam Elisabeth" at the end of the Mass on Sunday, after the last Gospel and before the Marian anthem.
    http://www.liturgialatina.org/misc/dominesalvam.htm
    http://www.gregorianbooks.com/p.php?p=MPswy/domine_salvam_fac.mp3,00/domine_salvam_fac.jpg

    Addendum: well, at least at Mass in the Extraordinary Form...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    Just don't bring back the Bourbons. As one of my college history profs said, "they never learned a thing." LOL
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,791
    ...one might consider coming back to monarchy

    With a proper protector in the mold of Mussolini or Franco, of course. As some are no doubt thinking about me, love of chant makes for some very odd bedfellows. Power to the people!
  • RobertRobert
    Posts: 343
    I thought it was some kind of proto-Taize they were singing at 15:00, maybe from the 1950s? But it turns out it's a World Youth Day song composed in 2000 for the Jubilee by a priest who is the current director of something called the Pastoral Worship Centre in Rome:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=torZWoySs5Q

    Remarkable.
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  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    This is just lovely! Merci beaucoup! I could read the title of the music they were holding in the video but not the name of the composer.

    Watching the video again of the French TLM, I can't help but think this beautiful, traditional Catholic, community-centered liturgical paradigm is the wave of the future.

    A NY Times reviewer once described the little volumes of Dr. Seuss as working "like a karate chop on the weary little world of Dick, Jane and Spot" and somehow that is what I think of when I see this video. Despite its modest origins (and overlooking some questionable ecclesiology in the case of the SSPX) I am convinced the French traditionalist liturgical model will someday have a huge impact on the Catholic world.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Bingo, Robert!

    Here is a pdf I just found online of the Anima Christi by Fr. Marco Frisina. I'm assuming it's in the public domain, but if anyone knows if it is not, please tell me and I'll take it down.

    Here's the link: http://www.katolis.lv/majori/scores/AnimaChristi.pdf
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