Modifying/adapting chants
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Is there anything truly bad about modifying or adapting Gregorian chants?

    Agnus Dei XVII has a rather wide range. I want to use the same incipit for all the invocations. Is that a bad thing?

    It will make it possible for one of my "choirs" to sing this piece.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    What do you mean by adapting and invocations? If you are referring to the practice of adding non-liturgical texts to the beginning instead of "lamb of God", then it's not allowed, because you are modifying the liturgical texts.

    But do explain, I'm not sure exactly what you mean.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Oh, I see what you mean now. Is it licit? Yes. Would I do it? Probably not.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The range would be a n octave and a perfect 4th. If I use the same incipit it would only be an octave which would put it in a more comfortable range for my singers.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Could you have the lower singers intone the middle one, and the higher singers intone the first and last?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,400
    If you must do this, choose an Agnus Dei that has an a-a-a scheme. Don't mutilate one that doesn't. This would be a hackneyed barbarity. (Sorry I can't think of a nicer word.)
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The other option would be just to use ad lib. II instead.
  • Jacques PerrièreJacques Perrière
    Posts: 139
    About the "wide range" of Agnus Dei XVII: yep it is an 11th if you add these two bottom notes C and D, otherwise it is an octave (8th).

    We start the piece on pitch A for note C, it goes from pitch D to top D except these two bottom notes C-D on pitch A-B. We have only one cantor singing the 3 Agnus Dei and he is comfortable on that range.

    Yeah it's not a bad idea to keep the same Agnus Dei for all 3 phrases.

    Another idea (maybe inspired by my guardian angel): sing AA-F for the second A-gnus. It will conserve the sounding effect of starting the second Agnus differently and lower than the other two. You will then stay on an octave range. And it is very easy to implement.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,469
    I don't want to make assumptions one way or the other about what you know about Gregorian Chant - so I'll just ask:

    Do you realize that Gregorian Chant can be sung on any starting pitch?

    An 11th is still an 11th, so the range might be too wide - but I have to think most choirs could sing up to an octave and a fifth (from A to E) without too much trouble.

    Have you tried singing it with them in different placements? Either A to D or Bb to Eb should be doable, I would think. (Or, if being sung by women, try Ab to Db.)

    Another option would be to have the invocation and the response sung by different people/groups.

    ---
    If your choir really doesn't have the range to sing an octave and fourth in any transposition, they probably need vocal work more than they need simplified arrangements.

    Set this piece as a goal- learn chunks of it and practice them at several different pitch levels until everyone is solid on knowing it (uncertainty shortens range) and can sing any section of it independently in the planned final performance key. (Don't tell anyone what pitches they're singing). Eventually, put it back together and everyone will be surprised at how wide their range actually is.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    If you can manage the intonations yourself, intone the invocations and let the others sing the rest. There is nothing wrong with having only one cantor intone the Agnus Dei invocations.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Notwithstanding the helpful comments above, the short answer to your general question is "no."
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,698
    Just have your most skilled singer sing to the *.

    That solves the problem of that Agnus. The rest is easy.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Low intonations are a problem as I am a high tenor. High Fs and Gs are no problem. I have a rather high tessatura. At the bottom I struggle.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,206
    There is nothing wrong with having only one cantor intone the Agnus Dei invocations.
    Isn't it the ideal that the invocations be sung by a cantor/cantors?
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Maybe I'll see if I can get a good alto to do the second invocation.
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