Rhythmic question @ Leo Nestor's Rorate Caeli
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Just wondering if anyone has any insights about managing the rather tricky rhythm of this piece. One of our schola members is begging to sing this, and it is very striking. I played the piano reduction without a hitch but when I showed it to my husband who is our director (and a middle school band director) he wasn't as enthusiastic since he says the score is a conductor's nightmare with all its signature changes and episemas.

    He says we're going to have to beat out the rhythm a couple of times before he'll let us sing it, and he's not even sure it's going to fly then. I guess the problem is attempting to pin down Gregorian chant with mathematical precision. It reminds me of the story of the scientists who wanted to analyze an ancient mollusk last week to see how old it was and killed it in the process. Chant is an almost inexplicable living force that can't be captured on paper very easily.

    Any advice on how to make this work?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHL6bBReoik

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Any advice on how to make this work?


    Practice.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    I think beating out the rhythm would be a disaster.

    It's essentially harmonized and accompanied chant.
    Learn the melody and its contours first, let the other parts find their place in relation to that.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    That's what I thought, Adam, but didn't know how to explain it. Thanks!
  • Agreed with Adam.
    If the director was to become very familiar with the chant hymn decorated in this piece, and ask singers to do the same, things would quite easily fall into place.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Excellent advice, and that was my instinct, too, but keeping rhythm isn't my forte so my credibility isn't what it should be with my long-suffering husband. If I told him you just have to "feel" the rhythm, I know he'd say that's what I do all the time, and the results aren't always good. : )

    In his defense, the score is a bit intimidating. In the first two pages alone, the time signatures read: 3/4, 5/8, 7/8, 10/8, 6/8, 3/4, 7/8, and 6/8 and some of those are just one measure long, so for someone used to conducting marching band and even Palestrina and Victoria, that looks like something from outer space.
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    Beside the rhythmic complexities, the harmonic language is pretty sophisticated. This is not easy music, but is it ever gorgeous!
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    White out.

    Those time signatures are damn near meaningless.
    (Like bar lines in Palestrina scores... but that's another issue altogether.)
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • Lovely piece.

    I'd tell my choir: the eighth note is constant. Each measure is organized into groups of 2 or 3 eighths. I'll be conducting down-up for duples, and down-side-up for triples. Most of the groups are obvious. Some measures aren't as obvious, and this is how we'll do them:

    measure 23: 2, 2, 3, 2, 2
    measure 24: 3, 2, 3, 2
    measure 36: 2, 3, 2
    (etc.)

    Mark your music as needed accordingly, using a small vertical stroke (ictus) on downbeats.

    Watch me carefully in places like measure 8, where my beat will slow down on the second quarter, as if it were an eighth followed by an eighth rest. Note that there's a typo in measure 3, where the breath mark should be in the same place as in measure 8.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JulieColl
  • I'd tell my choir: the eighth note is constant. Each measure is organized into groups of 2 or 3 eighths. I'll be conducting down-up for duples, and down-side-up for triples. Most of the groups are obvious.


    While I agree to get the even-eighth note idea down with your choir, as well as duple vs. triple figures, I would never think to beat the eighth note in this piece. It would drag like crazy.

    I think I'd just go chironomy-tastic on this one, keeping MACW's advice in mind.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood JulieColl
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,177
    While I agree to get the even-eighth note idea down with your choir, as well as duple vs. triple figures, I would never think to beat the eighth note in this piece.

    I think you misunderstand Chris's description. While the pulse or tactus is the eighth note, the real (down) beats he is describing are only on the beginning of each duple or triple, viz. down-up or down-side-up. And I would venture to say that the "side-up" part of the triple is not as pronounced as the "up" part of the duple; in fact, it is probably more akin to a rightward upward arc before the commencement of the next patterns (down) beat. There is no slavish ticking off of the one (up) or two (side-up) beats in this manner of conducting. Indeed, it is a sort of chironomy of its own.

    To get the feel of it, use your own hand, making a distinct downbeat on "1" and arriving at the top before the next downbeat on "2" (for duple groups) or "3" (for triple groups) with such patterns these (the only distinct down beat should be on the boldface "1"):

    1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 1 2 (simple duple, e.g. 2/4, 3/4)
    1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 1 2 3 (simple triple, e.g. 3/8, 6/8)
    1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 (5/8 = 2+3/8)
    1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 (5/8 = 3+2/8)
    1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 (7/8= 2+3+2/8)
    1 2 3 1 2 1 2 1 2 3 (10/8 = 3+2+2+3/8)
    1 2 1 2 1 2 3 1 2 1 2 (11/8 = 2+2+3+2+2/8)

    Make up your own patterns, being sure to use those found in the piece in question.

    And practice, Practice, PRACTICE!

    Conducting is not a matter of just keeping time with "beats" ... it is a matter of musical gesture that conveys the conductor's intent. Conducting this kind of music, as well as certain types of Spanish/Latin American types of music, is more like chironomy than conducting marches and waltzes.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thank you so much to all of you. This is marvelously helpful!

    Just one more specific question via my husband:

    How would you have your group count the 11/8 measure in measure 23? I'm thinking specifically of the eighth-quarter-eighth combination which begins the measure.
  • For measure 23, as I suggested earlier, I'd use 2, 2, 3, 2, 2. The 2nd downbeat comes in the middle of the quarter. You might consider the quarter as 2 tied eighths, with the ictus on the 2nd eighth. Unlike in chant, where you sometimes see an ictus marked in the interior of a pressus, there's no repercussion. It's just for organizing the rhythm.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Thanks for shedding light on that measure, Chris, and for pointing out the typo in your earlier comment! We very much like your suggestion of writing in ictus marks on the downbeats. This helps immensely, and I'm going to mark our scores. We do this for the propers and would be lost without them.

    Charles, thanks again for counting out the different rhythm patterns. This is really invaluable. Also, your explanation of the hand motion was very good. My husband has tried to teach me some basic conducting rhythms, and I just can't get the arc thing but this helps.