Priest Formation
  • charchar
    Posts: 19
    I was sadly reminded yesterday how seminarians enrolled in certain seminaries across the country are forbidden to learn and study Latin, not to mention forbidden to learn and study the extraordinary form of the Mass. Other seminaries, of course, aren't this way - but I find it so appalling that there are some. I know of some seminarians who must sneak away and learn latin and liturgy on their own, hoping while doing so that they are never caught, for fear that they will get booted out of the seminary. I bring this topic up for general conversation. Curious what your thoughts and experiences are. We have a long road ahead, though there truly has been much ground covered already. Praise God for those young men (and women in religious life) who understand the necessity to learn true liturgy!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Although I didn't work directly in a seminary or forone, I was for years the musician of the permanent diaconate formation program, housed in the same complex. I'm always a bit skeptical of these claims. Yes I've read "Goodbye Good Men." But my experiece spending a lot of time in a major seminary beginning in 2003 doesn't bear these stories out. In my experience, at most some faculty would roll their eyes and maybe express some disbelief that these guys would want to go "backwards." But I certainly never saw anyone on the verge of being kicked out for it. And recently I'm told the seminarians are chanting the Marian antiphon in latin each night communally.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    It would be especially wrong that a seminarian would be forbidden to study Latin, since Vatican II ordered seminaries to teach Latin (Optatam totius, 13).
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    This commentary from 1998 names some major seminaries that offered little Latin and required none: http://www.crisismagazine.com/1998/americas-seminaries-a-house-built-on-sand

    Some do rather better: the pre-theology program at Mount St. Mary's in Emmitsburg requires two semesters of Latin and of Greek; St John's in Boston cites two semesters of Latin in their pre-theology program and offers two elective courses beyond that (and students also have access to Boston College a block away). St Charles Seminary in Philly requires four semesters of Latin in their college program; Chicago doesn't seem to have a requirement, alas. The STB program at Catholic U. requires a reading knowledge of Latin for admission.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • As Char notes, it is not all seminaries that have this problem (indeed, it seems like they all are steadily getting better). However, I personally know a seminarian who was kicked out for his inclinations toward the EF. There may be more to the story that I don't know, but from his anecdotes it seemed like a pretty hostile place. I think that situation is becoming more and more the minority, though.
    Thanked by 2char CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    A priest once told me that he went along to get along while in seminary. After ordination, he said he had greater freedom to pursue his interests in the EF.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    A priest once told me that he went along to get along while in seminary. After ordination, he said he had greater freedom to pursue his interests in the EF.


    While it should in no ways be the situation, someone without the cleverness and self-control to figure this out and make it work probably isn't going to make a very good priest.
  • What Adam said.

    And usually when I do hear of these guys having problems, it's not JUST because of their interest in the EF; it's because of their propensity to challenge professors at every turn, their attempts to "organize" resistance when they deem something to be less than orthodox, and it's because they are viewed as "rigid," "obsessed with rules and regulations," etc.

    Many will say that these labels are simply "code" for being traditional or orthodox, but I'm not so sure. Some "traditional" Catholics can be quite black and white in their thinking, and that is not a great trait in a priest.

    A now retired bishop once said in an interview "When I was first ordained, I was very sure of a lot of things. Today, after x years as a priest and x years as a bishop, I find myself with more questions than answers."
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Many will say that these labels are simply "code" for being traditional or orthodox, but I'm not so sure.


    Some liberal/progressive/heretical people indeed falsely accuse some conservative/traditional/orthodox people in precisely this manner.

    But that doesn't mean that some aren't.

    To co-opt George Carlin (in re: children not all being special):
    Traddies are like any other group of people: a few winners, and a whole lot of losers.
  • charchar
    Posts: 19
    I greatly appreciate this conversation. I bring it up because I personally know a young man in seminary who is on edge all the time. When he calls his mother he is usually at a whisper if he wants to talk about anything in regards to what's being taught, out of fear of being heard and reported. He is very traditional in thinking but this seminary is where our bishop sent him. It is sad. He sneaks out to study Latin because he desires to learn everything he can. He's been told, as all the seminarians there have been, that if they choose to pursue extra learning (latin, traditions, etc) they will no longer be seminarians there which will possibly ruin their chances of every being ordained a priest. This young man told his mother, who told her prayer group so they could all be praying extra for him and for those seminarians there. She told him that she asked her prayer group to pray for him and he is now worried that the seminary will find out somehow and he will be asked to leave. He doesn't even want his fellow seminarians to know he's learning latin because he is starting to feel as if he can't trust them. This might make him sound a little paranoid but he is a very level headed young man, very faithful, patient, humble. I've been curious what others - you all - know or have experienced about these things.
    It's been mentioned that this kind of attitude in seminaries is getting to be a minority. What a blessing!
    As for our bishop sending some seminarians to this place, he hadn't been for a number of years because of its liberal stance but things had been getting better - more grounded teachers, ideals, etc and so, apparently, feels it is 'safe' to send young men there again.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    A friend who is now ordained explained some of why students go to a particular seminary. He said an organization such as KOC, or a foundation could provide funding for a seminarian to study at a certain seminary. To get the tuition, that is where the seminarian would have to go.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    The popular blogger Fr. Zuhlsdorf occasionally comments on the e-mails he gets from seminarians in such institutions, and always gives the same advice, which he had to follow as a seminarian, too: be patient and compliant, lay low, don't stick out, and put up with whatever foolishness is imposed on you, so that you can be ordained. You can learn the traditional liturgy later.
  • Exactly. I believe they're called "submarine seminarians."
    Thanked by 1expeditus1
  • I have no information to corroborate or contradict anything that was said above. Whether it is true or not, this type of stuff is certainly grist for another potential pot boiler by the ilk of Dan Brown.

    Also, what is the psychological effect upon an individual who has to sublimate his innermost thoughts during this very important period of discernment and formation. This can’t be healthy.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    The popular blogger Fr. Zuhlsdorf occasionally comments on the e-mails he gets from seminarians in such institutions, and always gives the same advice, which he had to follow as a seminarian, too: be patient and compliant, lay low, don't stick out, and put up with whatever foolishness is imposed on you, so that you can be ordained. You can learn the traditional liturgy later.


    Or join Madison :)

    Seriously though, he should take the above advice very seriously. It's more important that he be ordained than he wins this fight.
  • These are sad, even loathesome, tales about seminarians at (Catholic, yet!) seminaries being persecuted for wanting to know, of all things, Latin! It really illustrates just how nastily illiberal 'liberals' are, doesn't it!?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    someone without the cleverness and self-control to figure this out and make it work probably isn't going to make a very good priest

    I think this is a misunderstanding of the situation, and an unnecessarily derogatory way to describe it. It even qualifies as "blaming the victim".

    Our Lord praised the disciple Nathanael for his frankness ("in him there is no guile"). The tendency to frankness or to reserve is a matter of temperament, not cleverness; and if seminarians in some schools need to hide their reasonable, natural, and devout interest in the Church's Latin tradition, that is an unnatural and dysfunctional situation not worthy of Catholic men.

    The priesthood needs men of many temperaments, not just those with the diplomatic skill of hiding their thoughts.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    The Roman church, organizationally, has especially prized docility in its clergy and religious towards their immediate superiors (though religious orders with different charisms might make a greater allowance for less docility). People who betray a lack of docility of this type, even with natural tendencies towards frankness, have historically (and this long predates Vatican II) not been favored. It is unnatural and dysfunctional, but the institutional preference is immemorial in its roots.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    chonak-

    I see your point, and I truly think the fault lies in the seminaries.

    But, prudence and self-control are important qualities in priest.

    By way of example:
    I did very poorly in Jr. High and High School. I had a number of incredibly stupid teachers who taught stupid things and gave stupid assignments. Even upon reflection all these years later, and having talked to a few of the administrators of those schools, and my parents, and having been a teacher myself, I can say: They really were at fault. The teachers (not all, but the ones I had issues with) and the system itself were (And continue to be) incredibly stupid and flawed.

    AND YET: If I had had just a tiny bit of self control and perspective, there is no reason I couldn't have gotten through with my sanity and my transcripts intact.

    When I was teaching High School, I discovered that a number of my students had managed to get that far without basic skills like reading and writing. I told them:
    "This is not your fault. But it is now your responsibility."

    SO:

    Yes, I agree- and we certainly are losing many bright young men who could develop into mature and capable priests if they had access to better mentors and didn't have to spend all their mental energy keeping a straight face during classes on Multi-ethnic Womanist Theologies of Ecological Soteriology.

    And, of course, we have likely lost even more who might have been able to hear a call if it weren't for all the infernal racket going on at Mass in most places.

    But- as Fr. Z. rightly points out - the seminarian can't change anything by complaining, just as I accomplished nothing in my ongoing protest against my high school's idiocracy.

    We need those guys to keep their heads down, get ordained, and take over.