Solo instrumental verses during hymns
  • Hi everyone,

    I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on instrumental verses taking place been verses especially during communion hymns at mass. Are there any GIRM rules on this topic?

    Recently a cantor came to me and suggested trying an instrumental verse on the piano during the communion hymn to hopefully get the congregation to sing when they get back to their pews. I've always been not fond of this idea cause it breaks the song up and I feel that is a contemporary music folk group idea. I told this individual that I might try this idea after some thought. Normally I start the communion hymn after the priest gives communion to those on the altar and then play the communion hymn straight through all verses and if no choral anthem is planned I do an organ instrumental piece to finish up communion time. I'm looking for other peoples thoughts both pros and cons on this topic for discussion!

    Thanks.
  • Only at the entrance with an improvised interlude or fanfare on the hymn tune if you're running out of hymn verses. Done right, you can use the last phrase of the hymn verse to lead into the final verse.

    At communion I get a small group to sing the communion chant usually from the SEP until most of the congregation have had communion then I use a hymn.
  • There is a very old and respectable pedigree for this: it is called 'alternatim'. I have done it at Lutheran churches, where it is, in fact, a continuing tradition; but I don't think that it would work well in a Catholic setting without a lot of explanation and catechesis (and, superb choir leadership). Not to mention real, unbriddled, and infectuously cheerful enthusiasmos from the clerics.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    "Alternatim" strictly speaking is the replacement of alternate verses, either by a different singing ensemble or instrument(s). Because half of a Psalm would not be heard aloud organ verses have at various times been discouraged or forbidden. There's no such reason, on the other hand, for interludes to be addressed by legislation. If you have a choir leading, the congregation knows when to join; if not, they'll still easily get the hang of waiting for the organ to 'breathe' them. What's special about Catholic settings? We do this all the time when the line is long.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I prefer an interlude that isn't recognizably a verse. It's important to make the distinction clear to the congregation, because everyone has to stop singing. One way to emphasize the cue: have the cantor or choir lengthen the last note of the verse before the interlude while the interlude begins.

    A good way to end the interlude gives the people a cue as well, as Hartley says: "you can use the last phrase of the hymn verse to lead into the final verse."

    I think the first rule of leading congregational song is: don't fake people out. But interludes are beautiful. Everyone can breathe, and watch procession for awhile. Try timing it for the incensation of the altar.
    Thanked by 2Liam Gavin
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    At the cathedral, when incense is used (which is nearly every week), the organist often adds improvised interludes before the final verse of the entrance hymn so that the hymn ends as the celebrant reaches the chair.

    However, it's never just the straight hymn tune, because this would be confusing, musically, to the congregation.

    He rarely uses the last phrase of the hymn to lead back, but also, his playing is so clear that it is obvious when it's time to return.
    YMMV, especially if your congregation is not used to it.
    Thanked by 2francis Kathy
  • I'm going to reword by question maybe my wording was odd:

    Is it liturgically correct to break the flow of a communion hymn by using an instrumental verse to prolong the hymn or should the hymn be sung straight thru followed by a choral anthem or organ improvisation to finish up communion?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    I see no problem with it.

    We do the Communion Antiphon (in English or Latin) with many verses.
    Then there's a long organ improvisation on that mode.
    Then we do Psalm 34 to that mode in English with all the verses of the Psalm.
    Then there's another long organ improvisation on that mode.
    Then we do a motet or hymn.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I'm with Kathy and RMix on this one, with an added opinion that such situations are addressed best by having a conductor and organist tandem in place. Four eyes are better than the two watching the score connected to two hands, two feet and mutliple keyboards and pedals when improvising and timing are involved.
    Also, the insertion of improvisatory interludes works for the other processional hymns as well. After all, isn't this essentially the same "tactic" employed by a hymn concertato? The interludes do not necessarily interrupt the textual flow, and in fact should be quite complimentary by imaginative exposition of the thematic motives and transpositions, etc.
    We also use the identical order for Communion pieces Mat-tieux outlines above, sans the recto tono. (Hopefully, they change tonics in Tucson....from gin to vodka to moonshine.)
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    I have played interludes within hymns countless of times. Picking up on Kathy's rec, I often create extending matter beginning at the last note sung at the end of a verse. Having had a flugelhorn on a weekly basis for years, I sometimes have him play a verse with ornamentation even modulating to a different key (perhaps a half or whole step higher) and then have the congregation return in that new key for the final verse.

    Extending matter can be as simple as a repeating motif or fragment of the hymn tune. If it is a recessional hymn, a short two or four measure "fanfare like statement" can signal the congregation that we are raising the melody (can add an air of majestic finality) or even descend a half step during a lenten hymn (can bring a sense of seriousness and resolution to following the way of The Cross).

    There are many creative ways to insert instrumental passages. When performing a long chant piece as a hymn, I would sometimes insert a repeat of cadence (last two or four measures of the end of the verse) in improvised instrumental fashion, which gives the congregation a moment to reflect upon the sentence they just completed before moving on to the next verse. I might do this after verses 3, 6 and 9 for instance.

    Sometimes I improvise an introductory phrase, such as for "We Three Kings" using a reed playing an Oriental scale (i.e., major scale with flatted 2nd and 6th).

    The options are endless and I always try to give deference to the text and let it form the development of musical ideas keeping in mind that we are not performing for performance sake but helping to give "musical flesh" to the theological essence of a particular liturgy. I am always careful and reserved when implementing these ideas; If not executed in tasteful, artistic fashion being sensitive to the Holy Spirit it can turn into a music for musics sake display of something that is tacky, says "look at me", and detracts from the liturgy rather than heightening the experience.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • My preference at communion is to use a chant (usually SEP) then to have a brief interlude before a hymn. Once the hymn is complete it is yet another interlude until the priest is ready for the postcommunion. Breaking up the hymn at communion doesn't make sense to me.
  • Well, JS Bach used to do things like that, but the
    PIPs didn't appreciate it!
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    I have no idea what is "liturgically correct" in this case, if there is even a correct choice. In my opinion, I would prefer the communion chant, followed by a hymn. Generally I can assess if the hymn is long enough, according to the number of people lined up. If there are many left, I would consider an improv on the hymn. (I like the idea of using an instrumentalist, but would not strictly improvise but make sure all is planned and rehearsed) Then have a motet, with some silent time to spare. We have long communion processions. I think breaking up the hymn would cause me frustration if I were processing unless there was some rhyme or reason to the way it was done.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Yeah, our PIPs would sing along anyway.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Musicman93,

    What would the purpose of doing what you describe.

    If the purpose is to give the Organist something to do..... there are other times and better ways to do this, and I wouldn't recommend interrupting a time of quiet reflection and prayerful singing with bombast in any event.

    If the purpose of this is to extend the music to match the time used for the reception of Holy Communion, I don't think interrupting the verses of a Communion hymn is the way to do this. (Mind, I don't think there needs to be non-stop music, either, but I lose that battle regularly on this forum and elsewhere.)

    If the purpose is to give the congregation the chance to rest its voice, the "active participation" police will be after you, but your goal could be accomplished by alternating the antiphon and verses: everyone sings an antiphon, and the choir sings the verses.

    Whether something is "liturgically correct" is up to the liturgy police, of which I am most emphatically not a member. Whether the practice you describe makes Catholic sense or not seems to depend on what kind of catholic you are.

  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I really don't understand the problem. In Lent, the organ should only be used to support the singing, but surely this is not a rule at other times of the year. Music is a good in itself. The organ is the preferred instrument of the liturgy. What is the problem?
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    What is the liturgical difference between a two measure turn around back into a verse, and a 24 measure interlude?
    Thanked by 2Ben Kathy
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Nothing, there is no difference... I don't understand the problem either. If the organist is competent, and it works well for the situation (for example, long processions), go ahead and do it. If it doesn't, there's obviously no obligation to do so.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Kathy
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Or perhaps the two measure turnaround is bad.
    And the twenty-four measure interlude is TWELVE TIMES AS BAD.
    Thanked by 2Kathy ZacPB189
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Not that much, Adam; the badness only increases logarithmically: therefore 7.2x as bad.

    :-)

    I like interludes, but I agree with ClergetKubisz that many people might keep singing. Maybe not if there's a noticeable change in registration.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    There are a number of ways to do this so that the people know it's not time to sing. Start moving with an improvised melody while holding the last chord. Change registrations. Play the fifth of five. Don't play the hymn itself. Play something else. Then ease back in.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Exactly, Kathy. Even without any registration changes: if you go into the improvisation during the last note of the hymn (instead of after it), I doubt anyone would be confused and think it's time to sing.

    PIPs may or may not like hymn interludes. Whatever. But to say it's confusing on where to sing and not to sing? Never, if it's done reasonably well.

    1) Start improvising during the last note of the hymn, so there's no ambiguity that the hymn is not just moving on normally.
    2) Go as long as you want, w/ or w/o key changes and registration changes. Do whatever the heck you want.
    3) At the end, of the improvisation, make it very clear when the hymn is coming back with your chord progressions and tempo, or even improvise into the standard harmonization for the last 4 bars of the hymn, if you wish.
    4) Play the next verse of the hymn after the standard pause.

    I challenge anyone to try this and say people are confused on when they should be singing.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Not that much, Adam; the badness only increases logarithmically: therefore 7.2x as bad.

    Richard, you seem saying that the base of the logarithms you're using is:

    b = 12^(1/7.2) = 1.4121677336909...

    i.e. 7.2 = L(12), where L( ) is the log to the base b function.

    Where on earth did you come up with that? Or were you just pulling a rabbit out of your hat?

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Sorry, I trusted a flawed tool on the internet. That should be 4.58 = log (2) of 24; even less badness than estimated!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I should have been more nuanced in my answer.

    I assumed that you were discussing a Communion hymn or antiphon.

    I completely agree that a competent organist can begin an improvisation on the last note of the preceding verse, and have had fun doing this myself.

    If you have a building which allows, or even encourages, processions -- and if you have an altar party which knows how to do them well -- improvisations can be much fun as well as edifying.

    I'm still not sure what the purpose would be of improvising in the middle of a Communion antiphon, or between the verses and the antiphon, or between the verses of a hymn at this time.

    Cheers,

    Chris
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    I'm still not sure what the purpose would be of improvising in the middle of a Communion antiphon, or between the verses and the antiphon, or between the verses of a hymn at this time.

    As a rule, at my current parish we always sing all the verses of whatever hymn we sing at communion. I occasionally add interludes to communion hymns for two reasons:

    (1) The hymn is really long and I want a give people a break.
    (2) It looks like the hymn is going to end sooner than I want it to end.

    Here's a funny story about interludes: As an organ student at CUA, I was assistant music director at a parish with an extremely short aisle -- therefore interludes for processions were rare and I was not accustomed to playing them. I was asked to play for a big university Mass in the upper church of the Basilica, and the entrance procession, besides the standard ministerial entourage, included dozens of priest and the whole university faculty. You may know that the aisle is pretty darn long, too. Anyway, with the combination of nerves and inexperience, I played all the way through the second-to-last stanza of the hymn (don't remember the text, but it was LASST UNS ERFREUEN) without paying attention to the status of the procession through the cameras. Well, it looked like they had barely begun. So, panicking, I played probably a five-minute interlude before playing the last stanza, and then another minute or two of a fanfare at the end while everyone got into place. We had a good laugh about it afterward.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Jpal,

    Yes, august processions require sufficient, august music.

    A communion procession which needs some pause in the sound, needs silence, not reflective interlude. Often an interlude will break up a thought.

    God bless,
    Chris
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • I like to sing as much as possible during a service and I've been unhappy when the choir is allowed to replace a hymn normally sung by the congregation. I'm not opposed to having the choir sing additional pieces, such as starting a communion with as many hymns as it takes to have everyone back from communion, then allowing the congregation to sing another while the cleanup is being done. That choir piece could also be an instrumental, and I've usually seen it done very quietly and when the congregation's turn to sing, the organist will increase the volume for maybe one long chord as a signal to start singing.
  • I guess I should have said that when the communion hymn is started before or during my communion, I feel left out and rushed to to get back and sing as much as possible. I don't know about the rules; I just know what makes me happy or not.