SSPX - musically inclined or low mass mentality?
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    If answering this question will be politically incorrect or lead to trouble, I understand why it could and perhaps should be ignored...but I think it fair to ask if anyone has experience with any music in the masses in chapels of the SSPX?

    Primarily I wonder how many of them tend to have music at all, and if so what type, frequency of high masses, etc.

    Upon speaking to one of their priests (he was an exceptionally optimistic positive man) I discovered that they seem to not sing the divine office very often, except as "recto tono" which leads me to wonder if that attitude extends also to the mass. I think some priests of the SSPX are more musically inclined than others.

    At the very least this helps me understand what the attraction of the SSPX is, to what extent is sung liturgy part of their appeal? To what extent are they fast paced low masses?

    I am looking at this from a sociological, musicological psychological, theological point of view, not a polemical/schismatic point of view.

    You see one of my favourite NON SSPX priests who was once part of them for over a decade is probably the most musically accomplished priest with most consistent elaborate beautiful sung masses ever. Essentially I wonder if he felt out of place in the SSPX with his "medieval singing the mass in latin all the time" attitude. If current SSPX priests are somehow the opposite, not in that they are against it, but that music in mass seems unimportant, that could explain why their would be conflict.

  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    The local Pius X chapel in Wisconsin, of which I am not a member, puts an emphasis on music. A number of their choir members recently joined ours for a special Mass at my church. I was very impressed with their masterful chanting of the Propers, and ability to do a cappella polyphony. I was told that the children join the choir around 12 years of age.
    Thanked by 2canadash TheUbiquitous
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Most people who attend SSPX chapels also say they are not members as only clerics can be members , as the saying goes, hehehehe.

    That's good to know that some of them do well with music, than it must vary regionally!

    Thank you for answering my question.
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    For what it is worth, I quite often played the organ for SSPX Masses here in Australia between 2001 and 2005. This was the habitual procedure: a mixed-voice choir of half a dozen individuals; an organ-accompanied Ordinary (usually Missa Orbis Factor or Missa de Angelis, in my experience); an organ-accompanied offertory motet; an organ-accompanied communion motet; a processional hymn; and a recessional hymn.

    I should add that the organ itself was a handsome three-manual Johannus digital instrument. Really, it would have been better suited to basilica than to chapel requirements - the danger of the organist simply drowning out the choir always loomed - but it undoubtedly sounded impressive.

    Plainchant Propers were sung a cappella by men only, and would quite often be psalm-toned. For the motets we had a (very talented) choirmistress. At no stage was I, as organist, required to direct singers. Incidentally there was never any call for - and nor did I desire - little organ-only interludes of the sort that I am frequently expected to play at EF Masses under diocesan auspices (for instance, an interlude between the Gospel and the sermon; I quite often employ a Giovanni Gabrieli intonation for that purpose).

    Naturally the SSPX priest "signed off" on all musical choices beforehand (as I would expect and hope that any priest, anywhere, would do). If any SSPX lay adherent disliked the musical set-up which prevailed in this particular chapel, no hint of such dislike made its way to me.

    What happens at SSPX Masses now, I am not sure. It has been a long time since I went to one (for purely personal reasons unconnected with either music or canon law). On the grapevine I have heard that the Missa Cantata has become comparatively rare in this chapel during recent years (due to declining numbers rather than to any sacerdotal edict) and that the nice Johannus organ is no longer in use; but perhaps I am misinformed.

    I hope this information is of use to some readers.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    I've had experience with a small SSPX chapel, two "independent" traditional Mass communities, three EF communities in full communion (two since Summorum Pontificum and one under the old indult), and one "normal" parish with occasional EF Masses. In the smallest of the "motu" communities, which was larger than the SSPX or either independent community, there was very little interest in music. A clear majority of the families wanted a Low Mass with no music at all and were very happy when they got a priest who doesn't sing. Ironically, the minority who preferred a High Mass on Sunday were about the only ones who went to the monthly First Saturday Low Mass. In other words, the "Low Mass only" crowd wanted their Low Mass only on Sunday!

    At the largest "motu" community, where there was a Low Mass and a High Mass every Sunday, attendance was often better at the very early Low Mass despite outstanding music at the High Mass. The "indult" priest (FSSP) celebrated only a High Mass on Sunday and Low Masses the rest of the week, so there was no option for the "Low Mass only" Sunday crowd; same for the "normal" parish priest, who felt strongly about not offering a Low Mass on Sunday. At the SSPX and independent sites, Low Mass was the norm, but the people seemed very appreciative of the music when the resources were available for a High Mass. There was appropriate (i.e. non-obtrusive) organ music and English hymns at two of these three Low Masses.

    You have to keep in mind that at many Latin Mass sites, many people come from at least 45 minutes away and there's no good time for music rehearsals; I've known of places where there wasn't even a suitable place for a choir to rehearse before Mass without distracting penitents in the church. All in all, my impression has been that those who attend SSPX and independent chapels have more appreciation for music than those who attend "approved" Masses. I suspect that most of the SSPX and "independent" folks stay home when there is no traditional Latin Mass available, whereas the "approved" EF folks go to a novus ordo Mass to fulfill their obligation in the same circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them have been exposed to so much lousy music at these Masses that they've become indifferent, if not hostile, even to good sacred music.

    Related to this thread―
    How many churches/chapels are there, whether SSPX, FSSP, Institute, diocesan, or otherwise, anywhere in the world, that have the traditional Latin Mass exclusively (no novus ordo Masses at all in the same building) with high-quality polyphonic or orchestral music on a regular basis? Please, no chant-only listings; those are easy enough to come by. Most of the top-notch traditional music programs I know of also have the novus ordo Mass in the same church, e.g. St. Agnes (NYC), St. Agnes (St. Paul), St. John Cantius (Chicago), Brompton Oratory (London), St. Stanislaus (New Haven), etc. I know of at least one Institute oratory with orchestral Masses, but I'm not sure how frequently.
    Thanked by 1Arthur Connick
  • TheUbiquitous
    Posts: 70
    Jeffrey Morse has St. Stephen First Martyr in Sacramento, for one. There's another, I believe, in San Diego.

    In my limited experience, FSSP, &c. tend to skip orchestral and stick with polyphonic, given the choice.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Related to this thread―
    How many churches/chapels are there, whether SSPX, FSSP, Institute, diocesan, or otherwise, anywhere in the world, that have the traditional Latin Mass exclusively (no novus ordo Masses at all in the same building) with high-quality polyphonic or orchestral music on a regular basis? Please, no chant-only listings; those are easy enough to come by. Most of the top-notch traditional music programs I know of also have the novus ordo Mass in the same church, e.g. St. Agnes (NYC), St. Agnes (St. Paul), St. John Cantius (Chicago), Brompton Oratory (London), St. Stanislaus (New Haven), etc. I know of at least one Institute oratory with orchestral Masses, but I'm not sure how frequently.


    I would say extremely few, if any. Quite a few Latin Mass communities put a heavy emphasis on Gregorian Chant often to the point that polyphony or even just harmonised singing is extremely rare. The few places which do have a music program as you have described are often mixed OF/EF liturgy places.
    Thanked by 2R J Stove CHGiffen
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    "Quite a few Latin Mass communities put a heavy emphasis on Gregorian Chant often to the point that polyphony or even just harmonised singing is extremely rare."


    Indeed. There is sometimes a curious anti-organ sentiment to be found in such communities too (though not, obviously, in the SSPX community which I described before).
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    EF people can just be picky about liturgy in general :)
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    The liturgical praxis of the SSPX obviously varies according to region. From what I've heard and observed over the years here in the Northeastern U.S., (though I'm not a member) congregational participation is not generally encouraged, and Rossini propers and music from the St. Gregory and St. Basil Hymnal are the standard, although things obviously change from pastor to pastor at SSPX Mass Centers.

    However, SSPX France, "the admirable liberal French wing of the SSPX", as I've heard it described, is a different story altogether. The Missa Cantata at St. Nicolas-du-Chardonnet at Paris, an SSPX parish, is a revelation of truly enlightened traditional liturgical praxis.

    I encourage you to watch the 8-part series of videos of the Missa Cantata at St. Nicolas of the XXIII Sunday after Pentecost, featuring a baroque organ processional, a mixed schola positioned strategically in the nave of the church, antiphonal singing between choir and congregation, polyphonic motets at the Offertory and Communion and a vernacular recessional hymn.

    Here's Part I. Much to be studied and emulated here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJlF2bfcu8E
    Thanked by 2expeditus1 R J Stove
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465


    Incidentally, RJ Stove, if you happen to see this, what work of Gabreli do you recommend? Is it Composizioni per Organo? Would you happen to have any other recommendations for short interludes to be used at the EF Latin Mass?

    Thanks a bunch!
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    Incidentally, RJ Stove, if you happen to see this, what work of Gabreli do you recommend? Is it Composizioni per Organo? Would you happen to have any other recommendations for short interludes to be used at the EF Latin Mass?


    Occasionally I've resorted, Julie Coll, to the complete Composizioni per Organo book of G. Gabrieli's; but more often the G.G. pieces I play are the two short intonations (one on the first tone, one on the ninth tone) given on page 28 of the E. Power Biggs-edited Treasury of Early Organ Music. This anthology is showing its age now, and I suppose that purists would freak out at the editor's tendency to transfer to the pedals much of the original works' left-hand writing (the 18th-century piece by England's William Walond which Biggs included is genuinely impaired by this tendency); yet I continue to find the collection most useful.

    As for other possible organ interludes, I can thoroughly recommend the short chorale-preludes from late-19th-century Germany which Carl Piutti composed. Thus far, I've had no luck with finding these in websites devoted to public-domain sheet music; but the Bärenreiter paperback edition of them (albeit marred by German-only annotations) isn't too expensive to buy. Moreover, I've seen it in academic libraries with decent-sized organ-music sections.

    If you want miniatures from the French baroque, don't overlook the Livre d'Orgue de Montréal's material. (The IMSLP website used to include this, and maybe it still does.)
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Jeffrey Morse has St. Stephen First Martyr in Sacramento, for one. There's another, I believe, in San Diego.


    That's the program I have the privilege to lead, St. Anne Church in SD. I was asked to train our choirs much after Jeffrey Morse's fine program to the north of us.

    We sing a fair amount of polyphony every Sunday (excepting July and August). The Choir has 28 current members, Choirsters (children) 33 members. Fwiw
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Merci beaucoup for the recommendation, RJS! I usually play some Frescobaldi or Froberger, but I've been looking very hard for others that are suitable. I just have a Yamaha keyboard, so music for manuals is perfect for me. Speaking of the French, I'm quite enamored of these little fugues by Beauvarlet-Charpentier on IMSLP: http://conquest.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/8/80/IMSLP125619-WIMA.ec82-Beauv-Charpentier_6_Fugues_6.pdf

    For some reason, Bequvarlet-Charpentier's music just suits me to a T. Wish I had a harpsichord at home to play his music. That would be ideal. : )
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    I am quite fond of those little fugues, as well. Love his music.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Ils sont tres charmants.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    I have never been able to find Livre d'Orgue de Montréal's materials on IMSLP. If it is there, it is listed in a way that I can't identify.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Wait a minute, Charles. I think I just saw something a little while ago. I still have the tab open:

    http://imslp.org/wiki/Livre_d'orgue_de_Montréal_(Leb%C3%A8gue,_Nicolas)

    Is this it?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    It is only the title, and it says the page has no text associated with it.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    I have only found it here

    http://bibnum2.banq.qc.ca/bna/livreorgue/

    It is all in French, which I can't read, and the page formatting is time-consuming and difficult to print. I clicked on the modern edition. I would love to buy a print edition of the modern edition, not the manuscript, but can't find it anywhere.

    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465

    That's strange. It works for me just fine on the IMPSLP site. I just found a whole list of composers associated with Livre d'Orgue on Google: Girard, Jean, Nicolas Grigny, Jacques Boyvin, Guillame Nivers, Michel Corrette, Dandrieu, etc. Here's the link to the Google page:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=site:imslp.org+Livre+d'Orgue+de+Montréal's+

    When I click on the links at IMSLP I get a PDF of the score.

    Here's the link for Nivers: http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/e/e5/IMSLP77608-PMLP156469-Nivers_III_20100720.pdf

    Here's Lebegue:

    http://imslp.org/wiki/Livre_d'orgue_de_Montréal_(Leb%C3%A8gue,_Nicolas)

    Hope that helps.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    Interesting that they would mention composers. The whole collection is supposedly by anonymous composers. Perhaps our browsers are different? I don't know why I couldn't connect with it on IMSLP. Your link works for Nivers. The LeBegue link doesn't work.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Charles some of her hyperlinks are incomplete. Try copying and pasting rather than clicking.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    This is all very good stuff, and I look forward to playing much of it. But it is not the Montreal Organ Book. No one really knows who the composer(s) was for it. The original is at McGill University. The link for Livre d'orgue de Montreal brings up a title page on IMSLP, with no content.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,765
    This should be the working link for the Lebegue,

    http://imslp.org/wiki/Livre_d'orgue_de_Montréal_(Lebègue,_Nicolas)

    EDIT
    Oh dear I now see that there is a fault with the coding "é" seems to break the hyperlink.

    EDIT 2
    I think I have fixed the code and the hyperlink now works.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    It should, but it has no text associated with it. I did find the Lebegue here.

    http://imslp.org/wiki/Livre_d'orgue_de_Montréal_(Leb%C3%A8gue,_Nicolas)

    Don't click on it, since it seems to only work with all the above entered into a browser.
  • expeditus1
    Posts: 483
    Charles, I can't access it from the link. tomjaw's link did work for me though.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    It works if you paste all the characters into the browser. For some reason, just pasting the link here doesn't make the last part (Leb%C3%A8gue,_Nicolas) into a working link that can be clicked on.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,765
    Ah but after you paste the link into the text box here, you then need to reselect it and click the link tab above then it works!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,971
    Aha! Sounds too much like work. ;-)
  • Cantus67Cantus67
    Posts: 208
    Oh, and I'm building a Chant/Polyphonic program at Our Lady of Mount Carmel Parish in Littleton, CO and we're getting a decent sound regularly out of our singers. It's getting there, but we have a long way to go.
    Here's a ditty of a rehearsal we had some time ago for our dedication.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB3Mw82wSWI
    Thanked by 5expeditus1 irishtenor CHGiffen Arthur Connick JulieColl
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    This has been a very good informative discussion, I appreciate everyones comments.
    It is amazing to see the variety that exists in different latin masses!

    It is also commendable that musicasacra allows what appears to me to be a reasonable pragmatic degree of freedom of speech. Forums such as Catholic Answers (catholic.com) for example regularly censor and restrict commentary by users for anything too controversial. (They are especially notorious for such censorship in their section titled "Traditional Catholicism, to the point where one wonders why they even have such a section, where over half the previous users are banned and many new users are banned on a daily basis. Discussions regarding the SSPX often result in bans.)

    On the musicasacra forum there is refreshing degree of trust and confidence in the users to be productive and not polemical. Perhaps this forum also attracts users who also have a more shared orthodox leaning mindset in their views. What a great forum. :-)
    Thanked by 4R J Stove CHGiffen expeditus1 tomjaw
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Oh, and I'm building a Chant/Polyphonic program at Our Lady of Mount Carmel Parish in Littleton, CO


    Fabulous! This was my parents' (both now deceased) parish. It's splendid to see how things have developed since the parish was founded a decade or two ago.
  • Andris Amolins
    Posts: 154
    From a European perspective, and with somewhat limited experience with SSPX, I would say that they have not at all low-Mass mentality. And how could they, given the name of their patron saint?
    they seem to not sing the divine office very often, except as "recto tono"

    Given that they are neither monks, nor friars, and thus outside seminaries there would be not much resources to have the Office in choir, trying to sing it at least recto tono seems to be a good sign.
    They try to have a Sung Mass on Sundays and feasts even in small 'catacomb' chapels. If the are no cantors, some priests sing the kyriale by themselves. One, more talented priest has been sometimes singing also the propers himself. Singing the responses and kyriale by congregation is encouraged.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,928
    Having some experience with multiple SSPX chapels, I would say a lot depends on the background of the congregation. One chapel where I taught for a short term had an excellent music program for its rather modest membership (e.g., full Gregorian propers and the "Missa Super Dixit Maria" for the consecration of their new church). The other chapel was a completely different story. For example, numerous choir members complained that Byrd's "Mass for Three Voices" was unliturgical because it repeated the words of the Ordinary too often. The parish council even demanded we stop using the Gregorian propers and switch back to Rossini - not because of the quality of the music (we were doing quite well considering our size) - but because we were keeping the congregation waiting too long. (I was also informed by one of the elderly matrons that the choir should just stop singing the Sanctus if we were keeping Father waiting at the altar.)

    However, it's important to note that the former had just come into existence, and had no prior experience as to what they thought a mass should look and sound like, let alone a Sung mass. The latter, having operated for a very long time as an independent parish, had the idea of the Low-mass-with-two-hymn-sandwich thoroughly ingrained into their mindset.
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