Pointing English and the Monastic psalm tones.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    Has anyone had success pointing English texts for the monastic tones so that it the text could be sung to all the tones.. and /or do you have altered tones that retain much of the monastic tones melodic character yet can be easily pointed once with universal system, and sung to all the psalm tones. The Meinrad tones can be easily sung without pointing , but I would still like to retain the monastic tones.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    I was in a german monastery a month ago, and there were multiple pointings for the psalms, II and V in red, the rest in black (it used a black/red underline to denote the medium or flexa).
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    So you're saying you want one universal system so a text can be pointed once, then be sung to any of the (adapted) psalmtones?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,177
    I seriously doubt that is possible ... at least with any real sense of tastefulness ... for such a generic, one-size-fits-all, pointing to fit all the tones.
  • awilliamsawilliams
    Posts: 101
    These are my adaptations. We use these at the seminary for Sunday Lauds and it seems to work fairly well. The pointing of a psalm applies to each tone.

    e.g.
    Glory to the Father, and to the Son, *
    and to the Holy Spirit.
    Adapted English Psalm Tones.pdf
    38K
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    @awilliams: Do I understand correctly that the final accented syllable in a line falls on the last note of the termination?

    Good to see that you use the canonically-approved English translation of the Gloria Patri. Many on this Forum do not.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Good to see that you use the canonically-approved English translation of the Gloria Patri. Many on this Forum do not.


    I also use the canonically-approved translation ("Glory to") of the Gloria Patri in most of my work, at least most of the time and for the time-being, because I find its accent patterns are easier to fit to the traditional psalm tones than the "Glory be," and despite its long history and the explanations of how "world without end" originally meant the same as "ages of ages," I personally find "world without end" a bit of a confusing concept.

    I seem to remember hearing, however, that the new US translation of the Liturgy of the Hours will use the "Glory be" form.

    I will admit, above all, allowing/encouraging two different translations of the Gloria Patri - one common in the Office and the other common in Rosary - was a particularly bad idea/evolution/result. Despite my personal subtle misgivings with the words of traditional translation of the Gloria Patri, there's a reason we never replaced the traditional translation of the Our Father, and perhaps with some foresight, that should have been what happened in this case c. 1960s-1970s.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • awilliamsawilliams
    Posts: 101
    @ronkrisman You are correct.

    This system is also used (with different tones) in the Benedictine Abbey that runs the seminary. It is helpful for people who don't always sing the office (and thus are not able to learn from experience). Thus, when the antiphons change for a feast, the cantors simply sing the antiphons themselves and the pointing in the office books remains unchanged for the assembly.
  • awilliamsawilliams
    Posts: 101
    I don't think I need to underline how this is also economical for parishes that may wish to celebrate vespers regularly without having to produce massive amounts of printouts.

    For our seminary office books, the psalms for Sunday Lauds of the four week cycle are pointed along with the text of the Benedictus. The antiphons and responsory are chanted by the schola.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,196
    Not all English-speaking countries use the 1970s ICEL translation "Glory to..."; the UK/Ireland/Oz office has the traditional wording.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    @chonak: It is not an ICEL translation, rather an ICET one.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    After being distracted somewhat by the discussion on the Gloria Patri, I wish to add that these adapted tones are the best I've seen for English that still maintain the sense of the Gregorian originals. Perhaps if these were the ones being offered in the major publications by CMAA, et al, I wouldn't have been so opposed to "English" psalmtones.
  • awilliamsawilliams
    Posts: 101
    I appreciate the complement. These are the psalm tones I intend to include as a supplement to the Antiphonary you and I spoke about.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    Awilliams: yes that is what I have in mind. It is very similar to the my results. I have also found that many do not realize that pointing is not necessay with Latin texts if the accents are marked.
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    And where might I ask is the psalter, for them, that is conveiently arranged for gregorian type tones? Other than the anglican coverdale.
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Someone needs to produce a psalter for the english language revised grail psalms arranged to match exactly the way the latin text is arranged, not in the odd "faux-hebrew rhythm utopian early christianity" gelineau style where you have constant confusion due to lines breaks where you least expect them. Msgr Wadsworth and ICEL and co. are going to take at least 5 years to have anything available that might, or might not fit such description.
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    Where is a Latin psalter with all the accents marked/ppointed for singing of all 150 psalms?

    My franciscan Antiphonale Romano-Seraphicum has this for certain psalms, but not all 150. You are correct Ralph Bednarz, that does allow them to be sung without pointing. The idea is ingenius.

    I feel the same as Skirp about the "World without end" phrase too. "ages of ages" is the way to go, it's all I ever use so long as no one tells me I must not.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    I think it would be essential to maintain the interplay between the two final accents to achieve the charachteristic rythm of the monastic chant. An I think you must avoid using important structure pitches on unaccented syllables otherwise the final accent could be overshadowed. I am close to a solution.
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