Transposing for Singers
-
What are your thoughts on transposing for singers/cantors? I have one that insists (heavily) on having EVERYTHING transposed down a whole step, no exceptions, no matter what the original key is. She will often insist on this citing concert D in the treble staff as being too high. She's a mezzo, btw.
-
Does she sound better when you transpose to the key she desires? I rarely play any hymn or chant in the same key at every Mass throughout a weekend. It makes life more interesting for me, and makes people (congregations and cantors) sing better. I know the 11am Mass can singer higher than the 7am Mass, and I know that certain cantors sing better when music is lower/higher.
-
Transposing is one of those skills heavily discouraged back in the day when I studied. I never learned it. I tell singers to sing in the key I have, get a copy in another key of their choice, or to forget it. For some of the "standards" I have copies in nearly every key singers would want, so that is not a problem.
-
D should not be too high for a mezzo. It sounds as if she might be an alto who wishes she were a mezzo. At any rate, transposition may indeed be required for her.
-
If EVERYTHING means the music the congregation is to sing as well, it's time to get rid of her.
Any female singer who cannot sing a d has technical problems vocally that need to be overcome.Thanked by 1Jenny -
Sounds like she is a d as in diva.
-
I sing alto and have been slowly working to hit that d. When I was playing guitar, I transposed everything down a half or whole step. If I couldn't sing it, the people couldn't (wouldn't) follow. But if you have a choir, there should be someone who could pick up the slack in the higher notes, eh? Still and all, its probably less diva behavior than a a real issue, as Mr Giffen says.
-
Thank you for the great responses everyone! My initial assessment is that she is unable to reach into the higher range because she (like most amateur singers) tries to bring her chest voice way too high, without changing to head voice at any point. I had this issue with the children at the school recently: they could not vocalize higher than a C in the treble staff. I explained head voice and had them do some light higher register exercises and they can all vocalize all the way to the alto G on top of the staff. When I asked this particular cantor about head voice, she indicated that she had never heard of it before, so I am thinking too much chest voice is the issue. Further thoughts anyone?
P.S. Our organ (really a Roland RM 700 piano keyboard that imitates organo pleno, but not really well) has a transpose function on it that is being heavily abused in my view. The cantor in question will check the keyboard prior to singing warm ups/before Mass review to make absolutely sure it is 1. Turned on, and 2. Actually set to a whole step down. If it isn't, she will insist that it become so. If I insist that it isn't necessary, she will deal with it, but she will complain before and after Mass. I am after all the DM. -
There are plenty of congregations (and choristers!!!) that balk at singing treble D, or complain about it vociferously. I am certain that this is not an isolated incident.
I transpose literature down on a regular basis, and I am glad that I am able to do so on the electronic instruments I usually use. It often works better for my group. If I didn't have a "transposer" on my instrument, I would respond just as CharlesW does. -
My 9AM folks are uncomfortable above a C, and the others are fine with D and below. On big feasts or if it is an exciting hymn everyone knows well, increase those by up to a step. Sometimes I just get a feeling about how people are doing, and deviate from those one way or the other. But it is extremely rare to go a whole weekend with nothing transposed. [I practice transposing hymns at sight; I am mortally afraid of transposer switches because of a horribly frightening incident in high school when I discovered that I apparently am afflicted with something called "relative pitch"...]
That said, your cantor should realize that you are not there to be her accompanist; rather, the two of you are there to be of service to God and the people present at mass. It sounds like there are problems with both vocal training and attitude. If she is willing to have the former corrected, it might help fix the latter. But I am no psychologist.Thanked by 1Jani -
Cantors should be well warmed up before the mass. Any mezzo who is having trouble with a D is not warm enough. On the other hand, however, if a cantor is strong, proclaims the responsorial psalm well and is confident (without being a diva) then I see no problem with helping them out. Because we are in service to God and the people at mass, singers should sing to the best of their ability, even if it means a little bit of inconvenience on the part of the organist (in terms of what Charles W said about having several keys available).
-
In practice, I think what most would do is try to find replacements for troublesome cantors. I have encountered a mindset over the years, that seems not to understand the difference between being a cantor, and performance singing. As all of us here understand, they are not the same.
However, if you want to sing "Ave Maria, Panis..." or other standards, choose your key. I have editions in keys for every voice range. That works out well, since there is no transposer on the mighty Schantz.Thanked by 1jpal -
How old is she and how trained is she? She may not really be a mezzo ... any more. Even if her automatic attitude is a minus, there can be a genuine issue.
It's a helluva lot better than a local parish where the soprano organist and teenage soprano cantor transpose many things UP a minor third for the 8AM Mass. (I kid you not; I wonder if they ever notice that virtually no one in the pews sings and figures out why.) Music ministries led by sopranos and tenor 1s can deal with surrealism in the other direction than the more common one that prompted this thread.Thanked by 1Wendi -
Two weeks ago, on short notice (30 mins.), I learned that the entrance hymn for a funeral mass (Amazing Grace) would be sung by a granddaughter of the deceased. She told me before rehearsing that she usually sang it transposed down. She then started singing in the tenor range. In the end, we transposed UP a whole step.
-
I have had a few singers I would like to transpose out the front door!Thanked by 1bkenney27
-
Why on earth would Amazing Grace be sung by a single person?Thanked by 1ronkrisman
-
Transposition: The art of moving music that is too high for the sopranos to where it is too low for the basses.
-
I've had to transpose music UP and then have the singer sing down an octave.
-
The world would be an easier place on one pitch.
-
Easier, but less exciting. Even if there was only one pitch, some would still have trouble singing it. LOL.
-
Adam--
She sang, but so did some of the congregation, to my surprise.
-
>>to my surprise.
I should think that might be part of why only "some of the congregation" was singing.
I mean- maybe it's different where you are (I grew up in Florida, and now live in Texas). I have a hard time imagining a group of American Christians (of almost any flavor, including Catholic) needing anything more than the first two notes of "A...ma" for the whole room to suddenly sing with the force of the Mormon Tabernacle choir.
When this is requested at the Episcopal funerals I've done (all of them, so far), we sing it post-communion, UNACCOMPANIED, and every last person stand ups and sings all five verses without opening a hymnal, improvising (or remembering) 4-part harmony.
I've never experienced quite that level of Protestant enthusiasm for the song in any Catholic funeral, but it's always been pretty darn close. It seems to be about the only thing anyone wants to sing at a funeral. (Come to think of it- I can't remember a Catholic funeral that I have worked where it wasn't requested, either.)
(FWIW: I have no idea why. I don't dislike the song as some others here do. But I've never quite understood why people seem to think it ought to be such a great choice for funerals.) -
I'm a little amazed that no one has any respect for what the composer wrote...most have in mind the tessitura of the typical human voice, so moving it to other keys than intended has a bad effect.
Composers are not about to write something that is unsinkable. Composers of chants kept the melody within a range and so do composers of hymns, using pitch to emphasize words. Transposing anything to make a leader of congregational song comfortable in her /his/its range is a mistake. I also hesitate to consider lowering things early in the morning...all that that does is make sure that the voice never gets in a place that it is able to ring in the room.
Voice teachers never transpose opera arias to make them comfortable to singers, since they are rarely sung transposed in opera...art songs may sometimes be transposed to fit a voice, but any singer who has any training can sing the tessitura of the average human voice...and if they cannot, as this singer who cannot sing a d....they need help, as they can do more damage than good trying to sing under the limitations they are stuck with.In music, the term tessitura (Italian for "texture") generally describes the most musically acceptable and comfortable range for a given singer or, less frequently, musical instrument; the range in which a given type of voice presents its best-sounding texture or timbre. This broad definition is often interpreted to refer specifically to the pitch range that most frequently occurs within a given piece, or part, of music. For example, throughout the entirety of Wagner's Ring, the music written for the role of Siegfried ranges from C♯3 to C5, but the tessitura is described as high because the phrases are most often in the range of C4 to A4.[1]
In musical notation, tessitura is used to refer to the compass in which a piece of music lies—whether high or low, etc.—for a particular vocal (or less often instrumental) part. The tessitura of a piece is not decided by the extremes of its range, but rather by which part of the range is most used. The tessitura of a part will often influence which clef a particular piece of music is written in. Melodic contour may also be considered to be an important aspect of vocal tessitura.
The "tessitura" concept addresses not merely a range of pitches but also the arrangement of those pitches. Tessitura considerations include these factors: proportion of sudden or gradual rises and falls in pitch—speed of pitch changes; the relative number of very high or low notes; whether lines and phrases of music in the piece tend to rise or fall—the muscular abilities of a singer may be more suited to one or the other direction.
Although frequently ignored in discourses on tessitura, the volume (loudness) which a singer is able to maintain for dramatic effect will often influence which "fach" (voice type) or tessitura he or she specialises in. For example a lyric tenor may have the vocal range to sing Wagner or other dramatic roles, but to maintain the loudness required for dramatic intensity over the span of an opera performance could either inflict vocal damage or be simply beyond the innate ability. Verdi's Otello is a good example of the need for a voice capable of substantial power throughout the length of a performance of the opera.
Now you may be thinking, "Well, this is about opera and "high-class" music and it does not apply to singing in a Catholic church.", but, if you are, you are wrong. Basic vocal technique is the foundation of all singing.
Composers write for the voice. We need to respect them and not mess with keys, especially when the congregation is to sing. Lowering the keys back in the 1970's on many hymns caused much of the "non-singing" we have today. Getting the voice placed where it belongs is very important. -
Shouldn't that whole post be in purple? Or maybe I'm just dumb...
-
Thank you, Choirbook, for all that information. No doubt composers write their music in the keys that they feel do justice to their compositions. However, when speaking of church cantors, we have to remember that most are not professional, but rather volunteers with a good presence, good sense of diction, and the confidence to stand before a crowd. If our objective is to produce music that enhances liturgy, then transposition should not be a problem, only if it's used for that purpose and not to elevate the ego of the singer. It is also our responsibility as parish DM's to make sure we don't push the limits of our untrained singers to the extent of harming their voices since they are not trained to know when to stop. However, if we are able to hire professionals, then the analogy to a voice teacher transposing opera arias is a good one. And, in my limited experienced opinion compared to some others on this forum, transposing a piece a step in either direction won't really change the dynamic of that piece.
But, again, it's just a humble opinion. -
Adam--
Perhaps a different thread could explore the regional variations in Catholic singing. Here near Boston is ground zero for the milieu that prompted Thomas Day's Why Catholics Can't Sing. This particular congregation included a group of Sisters of Notre Dame, Believe me, it was a happy surprise. -
There will always be somebody who complains that the music is either too high or too low. I also feel that the genres of music of the past 40 years lends itself to listening more than singing. I've noticed in many churches that people tend to listen to choirs rather than being actively engaged in the music. Continued use of Catholic sacred music, and catechesis on musical prayer will eventually correct that. But, I have to ask this question........just how many singers feel compelled to transpose contemporary music as opposed to traditional Catholic hymnody? When the accompaniment takes over the vocal line (as is the case in so much of the music of the last 40 years), it's easy to just "run over" passages that are vocally challenging because the music overcomes the voice in some cases. But, that's a topic for another thread.......
-
This thread is bonkers. Count me in with Frogman (except for Beethoven, who was a vocal sadist), there's darn little material in any major hymnal that a baritone or mezzo couldn't handle. And the notion that they are endowed with the wisdom and audacity to know better what suits them, the congregation and the composer's intent is beyond my ken. That's why I roll with choirs at our joints.
Eb1 is a sweet spot for virtually all fachs; and if D'diva isn't interested in just adjusting her or his psychology to carry the forment voice into the modified head/forment to touch an Eb occasionally, then transpose them into the choir, or away from the pulpit and mic. I use psychological motivation on 3rd graders to great success.
We now and then mention Toolanbread as an example, like the National Anthem of an unreasonable tessitura. But I haven't ever encountered a congregation that refuses to go for that octave leap in the refrain. Why? It's psychological. Generations have invested in that song for whatever reasons, and they just muscle up without thinking about it too much. 'Nuff said. -
Voice teachers never transpose opera arias to make them comfortable...
I've always assumed this is just because it doesn't occur to us teach O mes amis to basses or In diesen heil'gen Hallen to tenors. By "tessitura of the average human voice" Frogman must mean a one-size-fits-all congregational range of about an eleventh, or maybe I've missed the point buried in the extensive Wikipedia quote.
As already pointed out, the accompanist's job is to make the singer sound their best, and transposing should be part of the toolbox. That said, the cantor's job (when not singing a solo) is to make the congregation sing their best. -
It also doesn't help that ther are numerous PIPs who constantly tell this cantor that she is doing a god job, or that she sounds good (with of course no mention of the organist) thereby reinforcing the behavior to which she already desperately clings.
-
If we could all choose our cantors and train them, we might get better results. Often, we inherit them from a previous administration and they have some learned practices that are difficult to change.
ClergetKubisz, it often amazes when the cantor/choir does something I know is terrible. Inevitably, someone trudges up to the loft - a real effort in my place - and declares how wonderful the music was. What can you do? -
I've found in my area that, for the most part, congregations do not know the difference between good and bad singers unless the singer is horrendously off key. Last week I played Schubert's Ave Maria and the cantor was all over the place, in both pitch and phrasing. It took every ounce of me to not stop playing. At reception afterwards, the people were (pardon the pun....) just singing his praises up and down. So, in the words of Charles, "what can you do?"
-
With the exception of SOME 20th century instrumental literature, I would dispute HIGHLY that notion that the key of a piece of music (that is to say, the specific frequency of sound designated as tonic), is a defining characteristic of the music, or has anything at all to do with the composer's artistic integrity or intentionality.
The question shouldn't really be whether it is, theoretically (or morally or artistically) acceptable to transpose a piece of music. The question: what effect does doing so have in your particular situation.
Take a piece too high, the congregation won't sing it. Take it too low and they'll sing it, but it'll feel and sound awful and they'll stop eventually. Change one piece and they might decide they don't like that one in particular. Transpose everything all the time and you might find after a year or ten that they've given up on singing altogether (cf. 1970s). Put it somewhere that's good for a congregation but bad for your soloist, and you emphasize that the soloist's job is not to put on a performance, but to help lead the congregation (whatever); put it somewhere that's easy for the soloist but hard for the congregation, and you reinforce the notion that the soloist is THE SOLOIST, and that the congregation is welcome to "sing along" like at a Peter, Paul, and Mary concert.
There's no shame in hitting that transpose button, but one should be well aware of the consequences.Thanked by 1Liam -
Some caveats, Mssr. Wood-
1. No one was wedging in a moral issue of composer intent as a maxim.
2. A whole piece (chant/song/hymn/psalm) isn't "too high." Portions of phrases may ask the voice to sing at the extremes. That is negotiable.
3. Congregations perceive these qualities in great diversity:
a. If a tenor is singing SLANE (Lord of all hopefulness) in the low tessitura the congregation may virally decide because the tenor's formant tone is still perceived as too high, they still won't join in. Same with a coloratura versus a spinto soprano.
b. If a female sings in too-expressive a bel canto style, you will likely lose any hope of men singing in any significant numbers.
c. The issue is moot for solo verses of responsorials or option fours, that's what choirs are for besides motets, to aid the congregation. And a good DM/Choirmaster will also know which hymn to sing in unison or SATB. I find that first/last unison, middle verses SATB is a good rule of thumb. Last verse can be adorned with a soprano descant provided you don't use bel canto or wobbling hens up there.
4. If your accompanist(s) have perfect pitch, you never use a transposing button on an organ or synth, ever! I have two of these fellows of genius level. Asking them to transpose NICAEA from D to C by ear is one thing; asking them to transpose "Jesu, Joy of man's desiring" from G to F by ear using a G score is quite another thing.
5. Most controversial for last- I contend that a non-operatic, non-crooner, pleasant sounding 2nd tenor/baritone with pitch accuracy and exquisite diction and demeanor will be one's best bet for a "song leader." But, I will always opt for choirs first. -
1. My use of the word "moral" was somewhat analogical. My dad once asked the guy at the pool store if liquid chlorine and powder chlorine were "morally equivalent."
2. True, obviously.
3. All true.
4. Well, yeah. And by "hit the transpose button" I mean any version of performing a piece in a key other than the "original" (whatever that means). Sight transposition, re-printing, pressing the button.
5. I agree.
The only thing I was trying to get at was that the theoretical question of whether it is okay or acceptable to transpose something is philosophical dead end. The thing that matters is the overall effect of doing so- which can only be gauged in a particular situation. Which, I assume, you more or less agree with.Thanked by 1Salieri -
Yup.
-
I too, have relative pitch, and transposing bothers the heck out of me, and I won't do it.
I once was asked to play a solo transposed (transpose-knob, 5 minutes before the Mass wasn't enough time to think about sight transposing) for a funeral (guest singer, ach!) and my right hand didn't know what the left was doing and my feet were all over the place. Apparently the entire congregation was tone-deaf because the all kept remarking that it was the best version of it that they've heard. Go figure. -
Ah, the joys of transposing. Having trained on Horn in F, we had to transpose B&H editions a lot. The most infamous common example is transposing a tritone for B major adagio movement of the Brahms 2d (not that I ever had to play it in concert, transposing drills included all the intervals because of things like that; I would say that transposing a third was not rare...).
When I was taking theory in college (after taking it in high school), the TA (Chuck Giffen may remember him ... the TA's name was Chuck, too, but a very different personality) on the first day asked for a count of those who had perfect pitch (there were 3, not me) and thereafter he made sure on random occasions to transpose sight singing exercises - including by a tritone.... -
Liam & Salieri. I'm puzzled. I figured absolute pitch was the rare ability, while relative pitch is common. I would expect the organist with absolute pitch to have more trouble with electronic transposition. He sees one set of notes on the page, and hears others. The common fellow with relative pitch might not notice a thing.
-
Anyone else ever encounter the type of folks who have "perfect pitch" and claim that an out of tune instrument, or interval, causes them pain?
-
Chris
Absolute pitch can indeed be a burden rather than a gift, for the reason you describe. I find those who had highly musical parents (typically piano or organ teachers) most likely to have "hard wired" pitch associations. So it's not so much a gift as primacy bias, cognitively speaking. -
What, Ryan, our choir? Out of tune, our strings, out of tune? My flute playing, out of....nevermind.
You gotta remember, if the organist is the gifted one with PP, s/he can just ramp up the swell and drown the malefactor!
Yes, if the organist has absolute, s/he really won't be able to process the dissonance between what they see on the page, the pedals and keys played and the pitch shift. And for them, it is not pleasant.
OTOH, people like that are often (in my experience) also incredible improvisers. If my organist had any inclincation to document his musings he'd be rich from royalities. And PP organists (that didn't come out right) also have the advantage of not associating "gregorian" neumes with pitch, so improvised accompaniment to the SEP, PBC, GR etc. becomes an adventure and quite second nature for them. -
2. A whole piece (chant/song/hymn/psalm) isn't "too high." Portions of phrases may ask the voice to sing at the extremes.
I find this untrue. Otherwise, why would one distinguish between tessitura and ambitus? With half the phrases confined to a-d' "Shepherd of Souls" (ICH WILL DICH LIEBEN in D) is cruelly exhausting for a bass at 8:30, but the E-flat of "I am the Bread of Life" is, vocally speaking, pure fun. -
Point taken, my Richmond friend! Of course one could sing "Shepherd" to ST. AGNES and relieve their pain;-)
-
Chris,
I think part of it is what your ear is used to for a particular piece. If, for example, I always play the Schubert "Ave" in Bb, and the guest singer comes in and says "Oh, that's too high, can we do in in Ab?" and I hit the transpose button and still read the Bb score, the Bb sounds a whole-tone too low, and my brain says "that's not right, it should be higher. Wrong Note! Wrong Note!" Making my hands try to help the brain by playing in C. But my feet, knowing that it should be a whole-tone lower, begin to play in Gb to try to counteract the hands. We now have Schubert/arr. Stravinsky.Thanked by 1ZacPB189 -
We now have Schubert/arr. Stravinsky.
I was thinking Ives.
Sounds delightful!Thanked by 1Salieri -
We now have Schubert/arr. Stravinsky.
It would be better to use the Stravinsky Ave Maria rather than his arrangement of the Schubert for several reasons:
1. It's chant-like
2. It was specifically composed for a sacred text
3. It's in C major/A minor
4. The soprano melody has the range of a diminished fifth
5. It's less likely that it would need to be transposed.Thanked by 1Liam -
We now have Schubert/arr. Stravinsky.
I was thinking Ives.
Sounds delightful!
Yes, actually a vast improvement. -
I'm going to have to check that out.
-
Our transposer has an amber light, which I think ought to blink as well. But there are other hazards besides knobs.
Maybe enough time has passed for me to tell the story of a Midnight Mass at a well-heeled church where a forum member recently worked. One of his predecessors was a talented organist, at the time a bit unseasoned as an arm-waver (and perhaps also as a broom-wielder). Instead of rehearsing "Minuit chrétiens/O holy night" we had a talk-through: just join the soloist on the second verse, reading from an old mimeograph of the tune. Wouldn't you like 4 parts, as best we remember? No, the traditional unison only. During the Mass I noticed my voice felt curiously weightless, and thinking I must be very well warmed up, I looked forward to a glorious Wotan-like high F. Only after my neighbors dropped to their knees clutching their ears and a few heads turned in the pews did I begin to suspect: the accompaniment score was in D flat instead of B flat.
Welcome to the MusicaSacra Forum!
To participate in the discussions on Catholic church music, sign in or register as a forum member, The forum is a project of the Church Music Association of America.
Categories
- All Discussions21,107
- General Music Discussion7,594
- Job Openings1,303
- Management of Music Programs833
- Choral Matters519
- Church Documents and Rubrics504
- CMAA Notes291
- Events651
- For Newcomers: Read First23
- Sacred Polyphony528
- Hymnody821
- Gregorian Chant: General2,582
- ↳ Graduale Romanum and Liber Usualis354
- ↳ Graduale Simplex55
- ↳ Semiology57
- Vernacular Plainsong671
- Anglican Use and Anglican Chant66
- Organ, Other Instruments and Repertoire414
- New Composition/Works in Progress1,208
- Recordings222
- Music for Hispanic Ministry151
- Music Education: Children205
- Music Education: General214
- News Items242
- Positions Wanted58
- General Discussion: Catholicism723
- Amusements170
- General Discussion1,001
- Opinions113