Does your parish use the ICEL Missal Chants?
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    It might seem like something rather mundane to talk about, but does everyone's parish make use of and know the ICEL Missal Chants? Ideally, every parish should be making regular use of them and know them so that there is a common mass ordinary which everyone knows (rather in the spirit of Jubilate Deo, 1974) It would be even better if everyone also know the Latin versions of these same chants.

    ICEL have even published quite serviceable accompaniments which I have learned and made use of (although I think that the Sanctus and Agnus Dei should be taken down by a tone).
    Thanked by 1a1437053
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    We did it for Lent. Haven't tried yet to implement the Gloria XV---I have a feeling it won't go well.
  • Spriggo
    Posts: 122
    We sing the Sanctus and the Memorial Acclamations at our School and Parish Masses every week, unaccompanied. For the Gloria, we sing the Gloria Simplex.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Yep.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Yes.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Yes. We use them every week.
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    We use Missa Simplex which is very similar, although we do use the ICEL Agnus Dei. I also use the Jubilate Deo mass for Advent and Lent
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yes, for Kyrie/Glory.
    THAXTED Acclamations (Mancini) otherwise.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    We use ICEL for Advent and Lent. However, I always substitute the Mass XVIII Agnus Dei because I despise the English adaptation. (My youth cantor keeps asking for them to come back! Apparently, "Lenten music" is her favorite. Very encouraging.)

    I am actually about to talk to the Pastor this evening about working in the ICEL Gloria. I use it on Holy Thursday, but, because we typically recite the Gloria during OT, I would like to use the Orbis Factor Kyrie followed by the ICEL Gloria during the times that we would otherwise recite it.

    We are also working on using Latin for the Sanctus since we are a bilingual community. Hoping both communities can learn and become familiar with it so we don't have to struggle as much with the THIS is in English and THAT is in Spanish....
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124
    The Boston Office for Divine Worship asked all parishes to learn it. Introduced it at St. T.'s last year, and St. J's this year. At St. J.'s, we sing the ICEL Gloria antiphonally.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    While Boston asked, my sense is that the project withered on the vine in most of the archdiocese outside a handful of places.
  • Chris HebardChris Hebard
    Posts: 124
    Liam--
    You're probably right; but the official endorsement was a helpful argument.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Our church (in the Boston archdiocese) used the chants for most of the first year after they were introduced, but now only uses the Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Advent and Lent.

    We are introducing parts of Clark's "Mass of the Angels" this fall.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Would it be helpful if MP3s of the ICEL chants were made available and distributed? It might be possible to put them onto a CD with some common hymns (let's say for example some traditional communion hymns which you want to get your congregation to sing) and distribute them for free after mass for a few weeks to get the congregation to learn them. I imagine that most people will listen to it a few times, and not really try to learn to sing it, but even that is better than nothing.

    I am really a strong advocate for this setting of the mass, it is provides a common mass ordinary for the English-speaking world, and hopefully people will learn the latin chants as well.
    Thanked by 1a1437053
  • Mike R
    Posts: 106
    Our cathedral parish uses it for certain solemn occasions (somewhat ironic, since most of it comes from Masses for weekdays in Lent or Advent and for the Dead). At our Newman Center, we use the Latin at our weekday Masses part of the time, along with the Psallite Mass (and the Proulx Gloria Simplex when appropriate). Whenever our students have been to events where they do use the ICEL chants, they have had no trouble catching on, but I'm simply of the school of thought that there is no reason NOT to use the Latin with such simple chants (possibly excluding the Gloria, of course), and the students prefer the Latin to "Ho-lee-ee" anyway.
  • CGM
    Posts: 699
    We use 'em during Ordinary Time.
  • a1437053a1437053
    Posts: 198
    YES!!! Finally! Our cantor is chanting Gloria, Sanctus, Memorial Acc, and Lamb of God. This is the furthest we've ever gone in this! After years of encouraging it finally started happening this summer. Back before the translation went into effect, I recommended that all the English Masses have this as a uniting ordinary, to no avail. (I thought that idea was the greatest thing since sliced bread.)

    I've always thought this is the most essential step of all: a solemn ordinary. In fact, it is so easy to then move to the Latin Jubilate Deo from here! And with a little encouragement, a step towards priest chanting. I mean once an engaged congregation picks this up, an engaged priest can learn the intonations . . . and then the responses . . . and soon . . . you have a sung Mass and the full Propers!

    Well, the last two may be exaggerations, but I say again that I think forcing OCP to print this in its Missalette was very very very big.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    I think forcing OCP to print this in its Missalette was very very very big.

    I'm not sure this is correct. It may be, but I am unaware of any communication from the BCDW to publishers of participation aids that the 2010 ICEL chants had to be included in their publications.

    The edition of Guidelines for the Publication of Participation Aids on the BCDW website has a 1998 date. If those guidelines had been amended at any time before the publication of the 2010MR in the United States, why wouldn't the amended text be posted?

    The posted text reads:
    The Holy, Holy, Memorial Acclamation, and Amen are to be printed with musical notation. No preference should be indicated among the memorial acclamations. No other acclamations within the eucharistic prayers may be printed.

    I know that some of the GIA editors had misgivings about some of the ICEL chants, two examples being the treatment of the first two "Holy's" of the Sanctus, and the "have mercy" of the Agnus Dei. Once GIA decided to include the ICEL chants, the ICEL itself required the inclusion of its notation, which does not include any augmented note durations.

    So again, my understanding is that neither the BCDW nor ICEL required that the ICEL chants be included in participations aids (hymnals and missalettes).

    I do know that the BCDW extended the norm - No preference should be indicated among the memorial acclamations - to newly composed settings of the eucharistic acclamations (Sanctus, 3 memorial acclamations, Amen). So any new Masses or settings of the eucharistic acclamations had to include settings of all three memorial acclamations. (Settings originally published before 2010 and reissued in revised editions in 2010 were "grandfathered" - if only the "When we eat..." acclamation was included in the original publication, there was no requirement to add settings of the other two when the revised edition was published.)
  • fp
    Posts: 63
    We sing the ICEL Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in english at our new 8:15 Sunday Mass. A capella. Very succesfully.
    "The Gloria is too hard" said the pastor......
    A great improvement anyway since that setting was "forbidden" the first year it was published......
    We also started using the parish book of Psalms....and parishionners and thanking me for their very singable part!!!!
  • fp
    Posts: 63
    didn't finish my post......and I am thanking the CMMAA and all of you on the forum for so much inspiration and help!!!
    FP
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    "The Gloria is too hard" said the pastor......

    Bada boom, take my wife, please!. Surely you can't be serious? And stop calling me Shirley! How did that priest pass any liturgical coursework in seminary?
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I am thanking the CMMAA



    CMAA = Church Music Association of America

    CMMAA = Catholic Mixed Martial Arts Alliance

    "We're kickin' @$$ and takin' confirmation names!"

    -------
    Sorry for making fun of a typo.
    I should probably be stopped...
    Thanked by 1Heath
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    CMMAA = Catholic Mixed Martial Arts Alliance


    POWER CHANT!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • fp
    Posts: 63
    Mr Wood...I knew I could count on you!.....
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632

    CMMAA = Catholic Mixed Martial Arts Alliance


    Salicus = a leaping kick
    Podatus = sweeping the foot
    Climacus = a leap upon the opponent from above (see 'grus')
    Custos = a referee
    Torculus = a half-nelson
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Quilisma....an uppercut?
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    Quilisma....an uppercut?


    image
    Thanked by 1jpal
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Dr. Jerry Galipeau's blog says that the July 2009 BCDW newsletter contained a request to publishers of participation aids to include the ICEL chants as the first option:
    http://gottasinggottapray.blogspot.com/2009/08/icel-chants-and-participation-aids.html
    Thanked by 2bkenney27 a1437053
  • svaillan
    Posts: 39
    We do.
  • Ben_WhitworthBen_Whitworth
    Posts: 90
    The ICEL settings are our staple diet: -
    Every Sunday: Kyrie (in Greek or English); Sursum corda & Preface; Sanctus; Mem. Acc. (we always use "We proclaim..."); Agnus Dei.
    In rotation with a couple of other settings: Gloria.

    The Music Makers in London produced a CD called "And with your spirit", which includes all the people's parts & practically all the ministerial chants.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Yes, ICEL chant Mass ever week in OT.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Back before the changes to the missal, I attended a workshop that the diocese wanted music directors to go to. In that workshop, at one point the person giving it asked for a show of hands to see how many of the music directors would be willing to try the ICEL chants. This, of course, after he had basically mocked them. Out of about the approximately 100 or so people in the room, I was the only person to raise my hand.

    Evidently none of you work in my diocese!
    Thanked by 1Ralph Bednarz
  • Pedro d'Aquino
    Posts: 128
    For the campus Mass at Columbia University we are currently using the ICEL settings with the exception of the Gloria (for which we are singing an adaptation of Willan). Kyrie in Greek and Agnus Dei (XVIII) in Latin, the rest in English. Snow's setting of Our Father and Doxology. They used to do the ICEL Gloria but my predecessor changed it because (as he said jokingly) he started receiving death threats from the students!
  • TheUbiquitous
    Posts: 70
    A wild SALICUS appeared.

    Go, MAHRT!

    MAHRT used SOLEMES.

    It's super effective!

    (This one's for Ben Yanke, if nobody else.)
    Thanked by 2Chris Allen ryand
  • RPBurke
    Posts: 25
    In my midwestern diocese, although I am part of the diaspora of Red Sox Nation, a meeting of parish musicians determined that the text and the music of the ICEL chants do not fit each other (an assessment with which I agree). While I'm sure the occasional parish uses them, at the churches I attend they are nowhere in use.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    A wild SALICUS appeared.

    Go, MAHRT!

    MAHRT used SOLEMES.

    It's super effective!

    (This one's for Ben Yanke, if nobody else.)


    Heheh! I got this one too.

    I'm glad to see that it is being made use of. In my diocese, many parishes have not bothered, typically sticking with a congregational setting such as "Mass of St Francis" or even some of the older yuckier ones which have just had the text adjusted.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    a meeting of parish musicians determined that the text and the music of the ICEL chants do not fit each other

    That seems like a decision beyond their purview.

    Or, if I missed the change where a meeting of parish lay people gets to determine church policy.... well, I apparently need to start scheduling some meetings.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Yes: heaven forbid parish music directors should have influence over the music used at their parishes! CMAA needs to take a clear stand against this.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    We use them [ ICEL] frequentlly and sing the Creed III every week. We are preparing
    Creed I. Currently we are singing the Meinrad English Orbis Factor. It is dissapointing to here that the ICEL chants or the ordinary chants are considered austere or sad and therefore reserved for Lent and Advent. This attitude demonstrates a lack of understanding of brisk chant rythmn and the dynamic posturing or ( attiude) of Mode iv, - (or any of the modes for that matter). Think of the " Te Deum " with its power and speed. We sing at a good clip and so does the congregation. These chants are not austere ; they are streamlined so they can flow quickly.
    I do not use the organ because I do not want to confine these chant inside minor harmonies. It clogs the flow. Too many notes. I aim to use only the melody line to show the rhetorical energy within the text. They need to be perceived horizontally.
    There are other problems with these chants which involve the accents.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I am truly shocked by the attitude that some people show towards the ICEL Missal Chants. They are basically an English adaption of the Missa Simplex I from the Graduale Simplex. The fact that they are in the missal is basically a shout-out saying that these are "ad libitum" for all masses.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    It was noticeably clear upon the rollout of MR3, Martin, that the USCCB uncharacteristically mandated the ICEL for the pulp missal publishers. (OCP's decision to include it in the Heritage and Breaking Bread packages and NOT in the Unidos/United combo seems a comical if not deliberate oversight.) Outside of the other reality that it was a refurbed Jubilate Deo (derisively dubbed "the Death Mass"), there was a great amount of approval stated on these boards, save for some carping over the Gloria. But I would think that along with most Americans, the Aussie streak of determined independence (No one's gonna tell me what....) to ignore the obvious also kicked in before that rollout, if not immediately after.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Thanks, hartleymartin, for pointing out the connection with the Graduale Simplex.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Ever since Tra le Sollectudini in 1903, Rome has been trying (almost in vain) to get the church to sing Gregorian Chant. Even if we just use chant-hymns. I have been pushing the use of "O Salutaris Hostia" to the tune most commonly associated with "Jesu Dulcis Memoria" as a simple chant-hymn. (Chants of the Church in 1953 gave this as an option). Most people know the Pange Lingua/Tantum Ergo and most know Adoro Te Devote in either their English or Latin versions.

    Jubilate Deo in 1974 was issued as the "Minimum Repertoire of Chant" for the Church and it has been sadly ignored.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    My parish does not. In my Midwestern diocese, I am only aware of one parish that uses them regularly, another parish that has half-heartedly attempted them, and that's all. If any more do, then I'm sure it's just a couple.
  • quilisma
    Posts: 136
    We use them every week, except for the Gloria (we never sing the Credo). I have recently started varying the Kyrie by using Orbis Factor (in Greek) instead of the basic chant. Seems it's ok to sing in Greek but Latin might get you lynched.
    I would love to try the Gloria as we're stuck with a refrain version at the moment, but I feel that there may be some grumbling.
    I was concerned at first that we would eventually tire of the ICEL chants, but I don't think that it's the case - they seem to retain a certain freshness. Maybe it's the fact that they're solemn and timeless, perhaps.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The GLORIA has gotten a bad rap since before day one. It can work a capella for specific and limited use. It works great with an inspired organ accompaniment for a season.
  • Joseph Michael
    Posts: 258
    The ICEL chant Gloria is our default, every-Sunday setting. We sing it antiphonally.
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