new non-English Mass translations
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Hello,

    Can someone with first-hand knowledge and experience comment on the kinds of changes that Liturgiam Authenticam will necessitate for non-English vernacular Mass translations?

    And/or, could someone point me in the right direction, maybe referring me to someone?

    A liturgist of my acquaintance is telling me that these other language groups face hurdles just as substantial as the English-speaking world faces. That’s hard for me to believe based on what I have seen of other vernacular Mass translations, which generally seem closer to the Latin. For example, English is the only language whose translation responds to “The Lord be with you” with anything other than “And with your Spirit.”

    This person is pretty well-known and has lots of international connections, so I feel funny disagreeing with him, but it almost seems like Stephen Hawking is telling me that 1+1=3.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,211
    Some of the vernacular versions contain invented texts that really should be corrected.

    For example, the Portuguese version has:

    --O Senhor esteja convosco. (The Lord be with you.)
    --Ele está no meio de nós. (He is in our midst.)


    and

    --A graça de Nosso Senhor Jesus Cristo, o amor do Pai e a comunhão do Espírito Santo estejam convosco.
    (The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you.)

    --Bendito seja Deus, que nos reuniu no amor de Cristo.
    (Blessed be God, who unites us in the love of Christ.)
  • Praying The Mass
    Posts: 70
    I have heard a problem is that many countries have used the current (ICEL) English translation as their starting point, rather than the Latin.
  • urli
    Posts: 35
    The Dutch translation is crazy. Sometimes it's closer to the Latin than the English ("...en met uw geest" - "and with your spirit") but there are so many different options that aren't anywhere close to the Latin text ("De Heer zal bij u zijn - de Heer zal u bewaren" - "The Lord be with you - the Lord shall keep you" is an alternative greeting).

    And don't get me started on the dozen and a half Eucharistic Prayers we have!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    Now be nice. I happen to think Eucharistic Prayer 27 and 9/10ths is the nearest thing to heaven on earth. ;-)
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Charles, is that with Epiclesis Option F or Alternate Preface Z? And are you talking the sung setting by Haugen or Haas? You know, the one with the kazoos...
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Steering this thread back to where it started:

    The entire Portuguese translation is here:
    http://www.missoesredentoristas.com.br/livro/celebra_st_missa.html

    The Gloria is apparently not unlike the current English translation in its reordering of some phrases.

    You know, it would be a really good resource if some site would compile (especially in side-by-side comparison!) the various Mass translations.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    " CommentAuthorGavin CommentTime1 day ago
    Charles, is that with Epiclesis Option F or Alternate Preface Z? And are you talking the sung setting by Haugen or Haas? You know, the one with the kazoos..."

    Yes, that's it!! You know, the one with the kazoo accompaniment to the bass and tenor nun's duet, and the communion song, "On buffalo wings I'll reach the stars, dine forever on candy bars..."
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    Since the Portuguese translation has been mentioned, please notice that there are TWO of them: one for Brazil, and one for Portugal (the latter also adopted in all other Portuguese-speaking countries). The one linked to by Felipe Gasper is the Brazilian one. I am not aware of any online version of the Portuguese translation.

    In what concerns the Mass, all parts said by the people (e.g. responses, Gloria, Credo) are exactly the same in both translations, but the parts of the priest (e.g. Eucharistic Prayers, embolism, collects) are not. The Divine Office is differently translated in all its parts.

    The Portuguese translation (the one I know) is overall reasonably accurate, as far as I can tell, and (mostly) beatifully worded, but then sometimes departs drastically from the original, on purpose. The examples above are the best: the response «Et cum spiritu tuo» was systematically replaced, always, everywhere. The first translation, from the 1960s, still before the 1969/70 Missale Romanum, did say «And also with thee», but in Portugal this sounded too familiar (you only use «thou» with people you're acquainted to) and in Brazil it sounded awkward (in most regions «thou» is no longer used). Both in Portugal and Brazil the third person singular would be the obvious choice, but then the way we would phrase the response in Portugal would still sound awkward in Brazil, while Brazilians would phrase it in a manner that sounds rude and uneducated here in Portugal. The solution found was to replace it: «The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of the Father and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you. / Blessed be God, who assembled us in Christ's love»; «The Lord be with you. / He is in our midst»; «The peace of the Lord be always with you. / The love of Christ assembled us together».

    Additionally, all prayers (collect, over the gifts, post-communion, and whatever) end up with a doxology that is something in-between the shorter «Per Christum Dominum nostrum» and the longer «Per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum Filium tuum...».

    All this, of course, was done with the explicit approval of the Holy See. Will that approval be revoked for the new translation? Perhaps... but I would not be surprised if we would have to wait a looooooong time to see. After all, the Portuguese translation of the 1974 Missale Romanum only appeared in the early 90's...
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