Church Sound System
  • Hi Everyone,
    Just curious how much your Parish has invested in your sound system? I know majority of you use organ, which is great! So natural and no need for anything! But some of us are forced to use to some microphones. Wondering which ones you use and what kind of speakers your parish has? Do you have a good mixer? What kind of mics do you use? ....and Are you content with your sound?
  • Theloniouslopez:

    Your question, being purely practical, has a practical solution. Your goal should be to get as close to "natural" sound as possible. Teach singers to sing as if the microphone isn't there. Teach voice projection as if the microphone isn't there. Let the sound engineer make the system cooperate with you, rather than the other way around.
    Better yet, sing the epistle, Gospel and so on, because the musical tone carries better than the spoken.


    Now that I have answered the purely practical aspect, let me take this a step farther.

    The Church building needs to allow and encourage singing. Hard surfaces, choir lofts, an absence of carpets, hanging tapestries (banners....) and similar things help. There has to be an option between Chartres Cathedral and Our Lady of the Angels, Los Angeles. Look at the California missions.
    Thanked by 1theloniouslopez
  • Everything said above.

    Remember Less is more. Use the fewest number of mics, amps speakers that you can get away with. Strive for natural sound reproduction. Find an audio technician that understands live sound and miking choirs and classical instruments--completely different than a rock band.

    Try to only use mics for spoken word. Don't mic singers (unless absolutely necessary) or instruments. If your parish does entertain with a Rock Band at one Mass and then has organ and cantor at another--it would be ideal to have separate systems since the setup is just that different.

    I've had good results with EV speakers (as few as possible) and using a condenser (podium type) mic for the cantor. The SM-58 dynamic type mic is great for close-up pop singing, but not classical singing. Regardless train the cantors to sing as if the mic wasn't there.
    Thanked by 1theloniouslopez
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    At Mass today, I noticed that the two singers were NOT on the same pitch; one was about 3-5 cents away from the other, despite organ accompaniment. Making it worse, they each had their own mike (in the traditional choir loft.)

    Returning from communion, I snuck a look and figured out why the pitch-problem: they were standing about 3-4 feet apart. They could not hear each other sing.

    So if you're going to mike your singers (a bad idea in the first place) at least force them to stand together so they can sing on the same pitch--if they're able to listen and match.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • Elmar
    Posts: 506
    Quick example calculation: 5 ct flat @ a', 440 Hz gives you 438.6 Hz, thus beating less than twice per second. Requires a lot of training to even remain stable on that level for a single singer, let alone matching each other's voices (internal vs. external pitch perception).

    Congratulations for having singers with such a pitch control!
    Among our amateur singers (speaking of the choir, that is) deviations of 20 ct are not unusual ...
    Thanked by 2chonak CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Among our amateur singers (speaking of the choir, that is) deviations of 20 ct are not unusual ...


    I have some singers that sing in mystical keys - they don't exist in nature. Consider yourself blessed.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    5 ct flat @ a', 440 Hz gives you 438.6 Hz, thus beating less than twice per second


    *Cough* I was never that good at math. Make that 50 cents. It was not unda maris--it was VERY noticeable.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,799
    Gee, dad29: wouldn't it be easier to solve this by giving them monitor headphones than by repositioning them?
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    Unfortunately, most of the untrained singers that I know don't sing very loudly. Without the mikes, they would never be heard.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    That's where proper instruction comes in. A properly produced tone will carry.
  • most of the untrained singers that I know don't sing very loudly


    God bless you! Many people have the opposite experience: the loudest singers are those who don't know what they're doing.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    Based on what I saw--from 50'--one of the singers was a very young girl, the other was early 20's. My pure guess was that the younger one was uncertain of the music she was singing, which usually results in pitch problems.

    So. Un-trained, probably; under-prepared, near-certain.

    The solution is not more electronics; in that church, un-miked voices carry well. The solution is better knowledge of the music, proximity to the better singer, and (thus) the confidence to sing out. On pitch.
  • Not always, but sometimes, the loudest singers are the ones with ugly voices, or the ones who can't carry a tune. The ugliest I heard in all my life was at midnight mass at Christ Church Cathedral in Houston decades ago. This wonderful old lady wandered on and off pitch with the most grotesque voice that ever was to be heard. After initially being put off my little conscience straightened me out and I actually began to enjoy the old lady's song. At least she was singing. At least she was quite alive in her worship. And her voice before the mass was over had become a thing of beauty to me.

    There are those other types who can sing quite well. have lovely but stentorian voices, sing at their own tempo, yet somehow 'add something' (I'm not sure what, but 'something') to the mass. I'd rather be in a church full of such people than of those who stand there with their mouths glued shut, absolutely determined that they will not sing, thank you, or else just mumble along without any spirit.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    In Aus we call lots of companies that tailor suit and they give us their quote
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Preparation is another issue commonly encountered, or I should say lack thereof. How many of us know of situations where the singers go over the music right before Mass, and that's the only practice they do? I dare say that this happens in cantor/accompaniment situations more than choral, but YMMV.
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    The local RC church has the "prep" problem in spades. Some people should never be choir directors.
  • dad29,

    Elaborate, please?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    For a year, I joined the local church's choir. At that time, a new (female) choir director was in charge. She had very good vocal training, and passed that on to the choir. It was clear that this was her first directing gig; her technique was lacking, but she was a good heart.

    After only six months, she left the position and the organist added 'director' to his title. Things went south immediately. He would bring out sheet music, send out MP3's, and--with only 30 minutes of actual choral rehearsal plus MP3 time at home, have the choir sing the music. I MEAN 30 minutes, by the way, for pieces running 4-8 octavo-sized pages in (usually) 4 parts.

    Some of the choir members knew the music, but most did not, and it sounded that way. Complicating things, he was directing from the bench and he moved the console to the Gospel-side of the loft, so that the choir--if they were watching him at all--had to face leftward, off-axis, to see him. The good news is that his direction was utterly minimal. The bad news is that his direction was utterly minimal; in combination with the incredibly brief rehearsal time, this often resulted in shipwrecks, with one section of voices breaking into 3, or being reduced to only 1 voice singing the part.

    Added to that, the man had no clue whatsoever about choral technique; it seemed that he thought good choral singing dropped from the heavens like the quality of mercy. Rhythms were askew, entrances/exits were randomized, enunciations were strictly to individuals' tastes, and phrase-endings were sung at forte, just like the mid-phrase! Pitch problems due to mechanics-problems were not resolved because this poor fellow had no idea how to fix them.

    At his direction, mikes were set up with the usual results: a few singers were heard in the nave, and the organ was heard very well in the nave because the mikes were placed very badly, indeed.

    He didn't care. He was bound and determined to stuff 15-20 new pieces of music through that choir in the 9-month season, and he did. And it sounded like that, too.

    There's more, but there's no time.
  • And nobody went to the pastor with the plea that they needed a genuine choirmaster - and a real organist!? It is astonishing that a pastor could care so little.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    It is astonishing that nobody else cared, either. That's how situations like that are allowed to exist: nobody, including the pastor, cares enough or knows better to stop it.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    You are correct: the pastor didn't give a flying fig. He was "advised" by a long-time female staffer who was titled "pastoral assistant" and who was a liturgical ignorama (charitable description).

    Let's put it this way: the choral problems were insignificant compared to the overall liturgical dumpster-fire at the parish. Thus, the priority was not fixing the choir situation. Without getting into more detail, I can assure you that the pastor was informed of the principles and rubrics which were being flagrantly and willfully ignored, but he was within 2 years of retirement and wasn't about to rock his boat.

    The new pastor, by the way, secured the resignation of the "pastoral assistant" and has hired an individual who will have indirect responsibility for the liturgy--but who is not a church musician by either education or background. That person is slated to begin work this summer. It remains to be seen whether other changes will be made.

    But under the new pastor--with the "church musician" described above--this last Pentecost was another sad example; the Sequence was not said, nor sung (yes, the Sequence is 'optional'), and the closing hymn was "God Bless America" because it was Memorial Day weekend. As is the habit there, the 'sprinkling rite' took place while the Gloria was sung........need I say more?

    Meantime, my family has registered as members of a parish about 30 minutes away.
  • But under the new pastor--with the "church musician" described above--this last Pentecost was another sad example;


    In such a target rich environment, may I be charitable and assume that the pastor had to figure out which crazy mess to tackle first, and that improvements are underway - if not always evident?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    CGZ, I'm thinking the same thing you are. But that's not a reason to drive myself crazy by watching the process. We can always return, when and if this situation rights itself.

    Understand that the choir problems are only a part of the current music-guy's failures. But I'm not writing that book. Suffice it to say this, and I have considered the words carefully: the music guy has absolutely no background in genuine Catholic musico/liturgical practice--whether Roman or Uniate.

    Finis.
  • Dad29,

    Last parting shot on this idea. Perhaps a new pastor would appreciate you (or someone else, if not you) who knows how things should be done, as reassurance that he's doing the right thing? Even those who know what to do like to be able to say, "and I'm appointing (Dad29) to implement this policy." and know that it will be implemented by the laity, well.

    Thanked by 2melofluent Elmar
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    The pastor has made it clear that HE is the liturgist for the parish. That happened after I immodestly made the suggestion that you did above.

    OK. I know when to bow out, and I did.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    The pastor has made it clear that HE is the liturgist for the parish.


    He has every right to say this, and to exercise his authority towards that end, but I have seen this abused in many ways: YMMV, but based on that statement above, I think he will be making decisions to benefit himself primarily.
  • ...has made it clear that HE is the liturgist for the parish.

    Actually, the Church is the liturgist for the parish, yours and everyone else's. The pastor has authority only to do what he was ordained to do: namely, what the Church has mandated. His authority stops where the rubrics and the councils have set limits and mandated specifically what they intend as liturgically normative. Of course, this doesn't matter to those little boys who waited and dreamed all their lives to get to be a pastor so that they could do what they please with 'their' parish. But it remains true just the same. The brazen presumption of such priests is matched only in inverse proportion to the spinelessness (or couldn't-care-lessness) of their bishops.