I think it's fantastic that your organist can make that much. Wow. More power to him! Too bad not every parish/pastor/committee are as or are as able to be so generous.

It depends a great deal on location, too. My salary would need to be 30-40% higher in NYC to be fair.

That does seem a bit off for a Catholic Church. I know the presbyterian church over where I am at, used to pay around 80-100k, but it was a major job, televised, and responsibilites where very demanding. Now with the death of the founding pastor, the church voted in a crazy new pastor that wants contemporary music, and the pipe organ sits unused many Sundays. They used to send out messages to the AGO members asking if anyone would come and volunteer so I have been told. lol

It's been my experience that pastors (who are invariably in charge of setting the wage for lay employees) do not adhere to the NPM or AGO salary schedules. At least I've never been asked if I am a member of either organization. It is my understanding that they are not obliged to adhere to them either.

It is my understanding that they [pastors] are not obliged to adhere to them [AGO and NPM pay schedules] either.

Perhaps the idea is that AGO members would influence pay levels by refusing to take jobs below the minimum. But organ jobs are a buyers' market.

Perhaps the idea is that AGO members would influence pay levels by refusing to take jobs below the minimum.

This doesn't sound realistic. I see a lot of world-class concert organists taking up jobs that do not match their musical abilities. There are too many qualified organists and not enough good positions. As supply is much greater than demand, I think many pastors can get away with low pay. I have also heard some pastors asking for full-time workload but offering only a half-time salary without benefits.

In my town here in Germany all organists except one work for a honorary of about 10-15€ (13-20$) per Mass. Choir directors have separate contracts whose conditions are unknown to me. We usually play only on weekends since except in the church my organ teachers plays at daily Masses are not accompanied by organ due to money constraints. But we are all amateurs, there is almost no one who has studied church music.

I have been told that (in Germanic countries) the ideal gig is to get a large parish/cathedral where you play daily Masses as well weekend and choir Masses. There is usually housing included, too. It seems these posts are the most comparable to the *typical* US job paying $40-70k for full-time work.

Priests are sometimes completely out of touch with financial reality. Their housing, food, medical, and often car allowance are paid by the diocese. They receive gifts, of course, but most of their salary is fun money. Many of them have never worked at anything else, and they have no idea what anything costs. I have most liked some of the older priests with late vocations who actually spent some time in the business world.

In Australia, it is literally impossible to make a living purely as an organist unless you (a) work at a cathedral, (b) work for one of a handful of independent Protestant parishes which have a strong line in "society weddings". Cathedral vacancies seldom occur less than a decade apart, given Australia's small population - only 22 million - and given the tendency of said population to congregate in a few coastal cities. (Unless you count Canberra, there has never been an equivalent in Australia of major inland centers such as Chicago or St. Louis.)

That's the bad news; the good news is that in Australia one can expect, if one is even halfway competent as an organist, to make at least $A80 (around U.S. $75 at the moment) per service. With fashionable Anglican ( = Episcopalian) or Uniting (sort of = Congregationalist) churches, an organist can pretty much name his own fee.

Many Australian organists teach (usually piano) for a living. Quite a few - all too many in fact - merely treat organ-playing as a hobby and, through some pin-headed notion of the devout life, choose to get paid little or nothing. They do themselves more damage than even the most malignant pastor could hope to inflict on them.

There are many 100k + jobs out there. They're not all ideal situations though and the stress might not be worth it compared to a 60-90k ideal position. Though sometimes I look at folks who work "normal" jobs - or even hourly retail jobs - and think they probably have more stress than us but have heartier dispositions as non-musicians.

Not workload... other things.

I doubt the truth of these supposed $100,000 jobs at Catholic churches - even Trinity Wall Street (Episcopal) only offered $125,000 a year - and their choice from England had to back out because he and his family would not be able to live on that in the NYC area.

It's depressing for organists to hear about this kind of salary when they are working for peanuts. For that reason, we need proof before this goes any further. A church with a budget that size will often have a budget available. Once we see one, just one of those, the topic can continue but until then I suggest speculation about this might cease.

Look to large, above-average-income, suburban parishes with large music programs that aren't quite in-line with the CMAA mindset. I'd guess there are 2-3 or more outside of each metropolitan area. I've held such a position and have been offered similar positions before in other states. Some folks can even make significant progress toward orthodoxy in music at these locales (though sometimes only at one or two Masses), but there's usually a line you can't cross at some point and politics/meetings/etc will lead you to think that 65-80k at another place might be a much better fit. I've noticed that one of the places I was offered the job at (and declined) eventually put out new ads for 2 full time positions around 50-60k and one part time position, which added together were the exact salary they offered me.

Same here. There is one large, I mean really large, Presbyterian church in the area that is near the 80K figure, or was 10 years ago. I haven't kept up with it since then. But Catholic churches pay well? What's that about pigs flying? LOL.

I have never seen a Catholic position above 60k my entire career. I can't believe there numbers being sported about. I would really like to see where these churches are.

As a cathedral musician, I think I can state two truths:

1) There are quite a few Catholic jobs over $60k. Would that all cathedral ones were!
2) Many (most?) of these jobs are NOT cathedral positions. For instance, in our (small) diocese, there are at least three parishes that have budgets higher (in at least one case, double) our cathedral (our budget is around $750k a year). The flip side is that the suburban parishes will often try to "bridge the gap" musically...the usually means some sort of blended worship. So, you're getting your money...but maybe not your artistic satisfaction/spiritual fulfillment/sense of purpose.

Another comment on N's/TCC's comment above about Trinity Wall Street. Yes, the salary isn't huge, but I'm sure 1) housing is provided; 2) there is a significant slush fund (i.e., you go to whatever conventions, etc., you want every year...doesn't count against vacation); 3) the music budget is huge (TWS spent $2.5 MILLION last year on music). So, real pay isn't always the whole story.

Finally, as in all fields, benefits are the equalizer. My advice is to check the benefits situation in a job assiduously. Our diocesan family plan is, frankly, poor: I pay something like 60% of the premium of my health care plan ($500 ded. per person) and copays are still $30 or more. This is compared to my last job in a major archdiocese, where it was 75% on the parish, 25% on me. I wish I had checked that out better (for negotiating purposes), although I would have taken the job anyway.

I know a major Catholic Church that pays their DM $138,000

Is that in a major city? Is the parish run by diocesan priests or religious priests? Is that the base salary or the total compensation including weddings, funerals, and benefits?

I doubt the truth of these supposed $100,000 jobs at Catholic churches

Honestly I wasn't joking or exaggerating about the $100K base salary. The total compensation exceeds that, of course, with the above average fees for weddings and funerals, plus excellent benefits from the archdiocese.

I should not reveal the exact location of my parish. All I can say is that it is in Manhattan, NYC. It is not the cathedral, nor is it a Jesuit parish in case if anyone is thinking of the wealthy St. Ignatius parish.

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense.

These numbers don't mean much for what it costs to live there. $100,000 base for NYC is probably similar to a more reasonable base like $55,000 or $60,000 somewhere else.

I'm not sure if one could work for less if they were to live in the suburbs or the NJ side and take the subway in; having never lived there, I don't know how feasible that would be on a regular basis either.

These numbers don't mean much for what it costs to live there. $100,000 base for NYC is probably similar to a more reasonable base like $55,000 or $60,000 somewhere else.

True. But my singer-friends tell me that most parishes pay their organists something like $40000-60000 here in Manhattan. They make it sound like my parish is spending way too much on the organist's salary.

Theo,

If you had said this was NYC....or Hong Kong...or other very expansive place to live...in the beginning, it would have eliminated a lot of idle speculation.

Seriously, there is NO Catholic church anywhere that is paying too much for their organist. If the organist at your parish is making $100,000 she or he is earning it.

Being an organist at a parish in NYC can be just playing on Sunday mornings - if so, a person could take the bus or tube in from NJ and work cheap. However, many Catholic churches in NYC have active funeral Mass schedules which, combined with a couple of choir rehearsals and cantors to train, immediately means full time with little time for commuting from the burbs.

I was lucky to live in Manhattan and commute to work in Brooklyn which was lovely, I can't imagine fighting rush hour on the subway to get to funerals - though I did it as I worked for a singer's agency and would cover churches with 2 or 3 funerals in the Bronx and they'd send a sub to my job....took a lot of coordination when we were doing these 2 or three at two different churches.

Any priest who would pay $100,000 to have a fine musician in place in NYC doesn't need people gossiping and speculating about something that is between the pastor and the organist. Priests have been known to supplement parish budgets with their own personal money.

How much did Fred Swann make at the Crystal Cathedral, Bish at the church in Florida and others. Often there is a golden fairy in the church who makes generous contributions to make it possible for stellar artists to be in place. None of our business.

Seriously, there is NO Catholic church anywhere that is paying too much for their organist. If the organist at your parish is making $100,000 she or he is earning it.

Catholic Choirbook,

I agree with what you said. A base salary of $100K + bonus + benefits is nothing unusual in other career fields. However, based on the information my singer-friends shared and the current discussion, it seems like this salary level IS atypical among Catholic parishes. It seems to me that most Catholic parishes in NYC don't take the high cost of living into account when they hire their organists. Perhaps organists should collectively bargain for a better salary from the Catholic Church so they can afford their rent and don't go hungry.

However, many Catholic churches in NYC have active funeral Mass schedules which, combined with a couple of choir rehearsals and cantors to train, immediately means full time with little time for commuting from the burbs.

My organist lives in Western NJ and commutes to work 4 to 5 times a week. Also, many organists are part-time on paper but working a full-time workload. Again, I say that organists should bargain for a better salary.

Often there is a golden fairy in the church who makes generous contributions to make it possible for stellar artists to be in place.

Right! Some churches have huge endowments for music, so hiring stellar artists and a large professional choir is financially feasible. But most churches don't have an endowment for music, including those in NYC.

Please read the original post again. I mentioned that there is a huge range of salary among organists working more or less the same workload and at parishes in the same neighborhood. I wasn't comparing salaries from different geographical areas.

I have to come down with MatthewJM and MT56-this thread can never be anything but diffuse.