Seeking perfection...

noel jones, aago

Catholic church music used to be about seeking perfection, something that we as humans are incapable of though that does not stop us from trying for it.

With a huge volume of music chosen by the church and published for us, we were able to choose how deeply we wished to delve into the music, deciding to sing just the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus and Agnus Dei or going deeper into singing the Propers of the day in simple or more complex forms. Every time we sang we tried to do it better, spending our lives in the attempt to achieve perfection.

It might be described as a competition between our desire for perfection and our abilities, all focused, as good competitions are, on a clear list of what is involved, this very simple list of music, chosen by the Church Fathers who have gone before us.

Attempts to undermine this (can we call it Divine Competition to sing God's music?) appeared as some people lost the vision of the goal and tried to bring in other music, music that they felt more comfortable hearing and singing and adding variety. Some of this music was glorious, most was not and since it, like modern Bible translations created to "bring people in" rather than enlighten, was in popular styles it went out of fashion shortly after it appeared in print.

There is no joy in perfecting the singing and playing of a 1970's folk mass setting. It's dated and old-fashioned.

But there is the chance of seeking perfection in the singing of chant as there was 100 years ago, is now and will be in the long future.

Opera houses know about this. They program well-known operas in which singers attempt to achieve perfection every time they are on stage. Modern works are also presented, but they are there to be evaluated for their possible inclusion in the well-known class. Many are produced, but few are chosen, as most audiences prefer to attend an opera where "new" is the reason it is being produced. They prefer to go and experience others singing, trying for perfection.

It also costs a lot more....a heck of a lot more...to produce a "new" opera....just like the popular music in the Catholic church today costs the parish a lot more.

Jani

Well, singing the "folk mass setting" is fun like sitting around the campfire singing Dinah is fun. The trouble is that those songs aren't worth perfecting (paraphrasing what you said) and therefore don't do much for us in terms of our salvation/edification.

Lovely post - thank you.

mrcopper

Up until your last paragraph, I am in agreement. But, as a "new" opera composer, I think and hope you are wrong about the cost ... the Met is continually promoting "NEW!!!" productions of tired old operas, and for that they spend a great deal.

noel jones, aago

The typical prejudice of a living composer against works of dead composers raises its head real fast, doesn't it.

To refit an opera production costs the equivalent of painting a house, not building it from the ground up. It does not cost them a great deal and it can bring more people into a house....therefore making it possible for them to present performances of operas by living composers which almost always get put on the shelf after they've succeeded in losing more than they made.

And none of this has anything to do with the topic.

Adam Wood

I disagree with the premise here.

Not your ideal of working toward perfection. That I agree with.

I disagree with the notion that at some time in past this was normal.

I think it is done in some places now, and not in most.

I think in the past, it was done in some places, but not in most.

Since the crummy, the mediocre, and the provincial don't last and aren't remembered, it seems like the past is full of great stuff. Yesterday's mediocrity has fallen away, only to be replaced by today's mediocrity. Signs of progress that today's mediocrity is being abandoned will disappoint everyone when they realize that tomorrow has a mediocrity all its own.

noel jones, aago

Those of us who lived in the past dispute your dispute.

Most places did it simply because when priests went to seminary that sang the Mass in Latin including propers as did nuns.

When Bishops visited Rome they sang the Mass in Latin including propers.

The entire tree was there, each parish was a leaf. Yes, in some parishes other things were done, but not when the Bishop came to town. And possibly in Rome things were done differently, but not when the Pope was sitting there...

It's just like the army, there was a strict rule and it was followed with the understanding that you are working under the supervision of a higher authority who had been trained, just as your priest, to know what should be permitted.

This Sunday at your Episcopal church you may do any music that you want as long as it has a hint of being Christian or at least Old Testament if not. It's your choice. You can do Gregorian Chant. There is no difference between your church and the average Catholic church.

In the 1950's you would have had to confess merely being IN an Episcopal church. Catholic musicians knew mostly about proper liturgical music because aside from what they might hear on radio and TV (and more than you think of the music there was Catholic, as amazing as that might seem - Mother, At Your Feet was a billboard smash) as many of the famous entertainers were Catholic - they knew little or nothing about Protestant music - unless they had been to school and learned the classics.

If your teacher was non-Catholic and married you were not permitted to attend the wedding.

A Mighty Fortress was NEVER sung or even hummed in a Catholic church.

You must take all that into consideration to fully understand the pervasive Catholic culture of the past.

To make this clear. Priests today are not allowed to change the words of the Mass and most do not. Priests then were not allowed to change the words of the Mass - the only difference is that they knew better than to do that or they'd really, really be in trouble.

Only with a return to the strict understanding of what Catholic music was and putting it back into effect can music in the Catholic church be saved.

Adam Wood

Ah- I see I thought you were talking about something different.

You are speaking about "content," which has clearly changed.

I thought you were speaking about a widespread drive to higher and higher quality.
The notion that everyone, everywhere (or most people, in most places) had a strong focus on quality and "perfection," is what I was disputing.

I would put money on a wager that for every amazing choir and organist out there, there were dozens or maybe hundreds of little old ladies on ~~spinets~~ ~~hammonds~~ ~~harmonia~~ accordians.

Or places without a hint of music.

Wendi

Only with a return to the strict understanding of what Catholic culture was and putting it back into effect can culture in the Catholic church be restored.

Just by changing a couple of words, your statement applies to the state of the church in general. When we start returning to what my Grandmother described her parish as being we will rediscover who we are. And we will be strong. And for the record, they had a choir over 30 voices strong...in a small rural area. And it was all men and boys.

noel jones, aago

Priests universally spent years in seminary and knew what quality music was. They used the Liber.

I was speaking about perfecting skills singing limited content.

Very, very few parishes in areas with industry had no music. The reason was that priests were paid a higher stipend to sing daily Masses...a bit of that went to an organist who sag the Mass.

Awfully good planning from above, wasn't it.

Theo

My questions for readers of this thread:

1) What is your take on the newly-composed, congregational settings of the Ordinary? I'm thinking of settings by DeBruyn and Guimont. Are they like the folk Mass settings of the 1970s, or are they any better?

2) How does a non-professional choir strike a balance between perfection and variety? I am thinking of the choir I'm in for the last 10+ years. My choir director decided to program a different choral setting every Sunday last year. Many of the settings were a cappella setting, but our choir is not good with a cappella music at all. Is it a good idea to cover more music than the choir can handle and sacrifice quality?

matthewj

If a choir director is planning a different Choral Ordinary every Sunday and his/her choir sounds bad, something needs to be done. Like opening a Kyriale.

Adam Wood

Is it a good idea to cover more music than the choir can handle and sacrifice quality?

Obviously,

My choir director decided to program a different choral setting every Sunday last year. Many of the settings were a cappella setting, but our choir is not good with a cappella music at all.

Seriously, what kind of crazy person would do that?

canadash

I will digress... I'm sorry CC. But poor Theo! Is this the conductor who is :

in a co-dependent relationship [with a soprano]. Neither of them would want to leave because they won't find another church that pays so well. She brings in a big donation from a third party every year for the music program. He needs a place to stay over on Saturdays; her apartment is close by. In return, she gets many more solos/weddings/funerals than other professional choir members. It's all too complicated.
This is another reason why all of us long-time choir members can't do anything. We don't want the choir to collapse completely.

Now you have music which is not sung well for the sake of variety. I'm not sold. It sounds very stressful.

Back to the original thoughts though. Our parish priest INSISTED on having the appropriate Gregorian chants for the season. I wasn't so sure, but now I really believe this is a great way to go. I will mix it up with something new, but I have a much better sense of what works and what is appropriate. Also, it is wonderful that the congregation is becoming familiar with this important music! After visiting different parishes with a variety of music over the summer... I know we're on the right track.

Wendi

Theo I can't speak for other places, but our very non-professional choir didn't exist until March. So far we've learned 3 choral pieces. However, we've also learned to chant the Simple English Propers, a few Latin Ad Libitum chants and about 10 Latin Hymns that are in the Saint Michael Hymnal. (Along with English Hymns of course.)

We are currently working on additional choral pieces, but until we're ready to sing them we rotate what we know. The Propers are different every week, and while we are singing the Latin hymns we're also teaching them to the congregation. That IMO provides a nice blend of quality and variety. It works for us anyway.

mrcopper

Just pointing out that in most protestant churches, the choir learns (a) a new anthem (b) a new communion piece (c) two or three or four relatively unfamiliar hymns ... every week. And, at least in Episcopal churches, also frequently a dreadful Psalm wrenched onto a four part harmony framework.

noel jones, aago

Just pointing out that in most protestant churches,

No, they don't...they sing music that they have sung before while learning some new music over a period of time. Rarely do they sing more than an anthem and responses. The hymns in protestant churches are rarely unfamiliar - if they are the person that chooses them gets chewed out, and your dislike for Anglican chant psalms indicates that you've failed to master and understand this glorious manner of singing psalms.

The majority of protestant churches do not offer communion weekly...some only do so quarterly and it is dreaded by many since it takes so much time and effort. (not kidding)

Quite a few list members have worked and do work as professionals in protestant churches where it is rare for the music, even in the most humble ones, to sink as low as the guitar masses still pervasive in some Catholic parishes.

Catholic churches are often toxic places to work as musicians; protestant churches rarely are. It is as difficult to get fired in a protestant church as it is easy to get fired in a Catholic church.

Even protestant churches understand the need for repertoire that keep the abilities of the choir at a high level, seeking....perfection.

For some reason I am reminded of sharing a staff cabin at Interlochen with, among others, a composer, who, whenever a composer of the past was mentioned, say Satie, for example, he'd turn around with a sneer and say, "He's dead, you know!"

How to win friends and influence people.

melofluent

The digressions here are shotgun, all over the map (mixed metaphors.)
FNJ's apparently pondering the philosophical implications of the mystical union between heaven and earth that obviously have import and ramifications upon our practices. Seeking perfection is existentially the whole point of the Mass, tho' he and we all acknowledge it remains a bridge too far. One of those "it's about the journey, not the arrival" sorts of endeavors.
Frankly I could care less what ethos runs the prot/evangelical church across town. I care less about any RC choir master who thinks and decides "on behalf" of "his/her" congregations and choirs that frequently programming "Cantique de Jean Racine" edifies both choir and faithful, when really the motivation is centered upon the egoistic benefit of knowing it can be rendered well and consistently. Same for the liturgical folly of changing Mass ordinaries weekly. It does not bespeak, IMO, well of understanding both the documents/traditions and basic gospel values. To me, noble simplicity as well as artistic beauty must both be tendered by true humility on the part of the performers, whether congregation or choir.
My mentor, Frank LaRocca, represents that ethos among all the many living composers I know here and elsewhere. And his reversion to Mother Church is no more exemplified by his singing in the schola at St. MargaretMary's in Oakland. And on the other hand, he has found such a new, as close to "perfect" voice in compositions such as his "O magnum mysterium" on display at NLM. Frank understands this notion of Christ's incarnational necessity in which he declared "I came that you (all) might have life, and have it to the full." Not everyone's definition of "to the full" is the same, but the humble pursuit and emulation of heavenly perfection through music is a by product of heeding Christ's call to us.

canadash

No, they don't...they sing music that they have sung before while learning some new music over a period of time. Rarely do they sing more than an anthem and responses

Exactly.

I find it interesting that a choir wouldn't have a repertoire of music, needing only to learn a handful of new anthems a year. Then, if one adds propers and psalms, there is plenty of work every week. Mind you my choir is made up of amateurs, but I'd rather hear familiar music sung well than something new sung poorly.

Adam Wood

No, they don't...they sing music that they have sung before while learning some new music over a period of time. Rarely do they sing more than an anthem and responses. The hymns in protestant churches are rarely unfamiliar - if they are the person that chooses them gets chewed out, and your dislike for Anglican chant psalms indicates that you've failed to master and understand this glorious manner of singing psalms.

This.

Quite a few list members have worked and do work as professionals in protestant churches where it is rare for the music, even in the most humble ones, to sink as low as the guitar masses still pervasive in some Catholic parishes.

And that.

Catholic churches are often toxic places to work as musicians; protestant churches rarely are. It is as difficult to get fired in a protestant church as it is easy to get fired in a Catholic church.

This too.

CharlesW

Many good points! I change Ordinaries seasonally, and don't have any desire to change them more often. With that schedule, they are learned by the congregation and become musically rather transparent behind the words, which take prominence. Anthems? Yeah, I do them and have a core of anthems the choir know while introducing a few new ones each year. Anthems are not sung every week, but on average twice per month. With hymns, there are roughly twenty that the congregation knows well. I generally introduce no more than three new hymns a year. It is not entertainment and there is never a, "Now for my next number folks."

Adam Wood

Sometimes I look at my music-planning sheet (a Google Doc Spread Sheet that goes back 3 years now) and think, "Gosh- this isn't good- I keep doing the same couple-dozen hymns over and over."

Then I remember that I am the only person there who has any desire for it to be otherwise.

My first year-and-a-half I introduced a lot of new music, as the repertoire there was vanishingly small (and the pile of "anthems" I was handed was mostly terrible).

Now:
The choir sings about one new piece a month, the other three weeks being pieces we have sung already. The last time I introduced a new piece to the congregation was about 3 months ago, and the choir had sung it as an anthem twice before that.

I know it isn't the point of this thread, and I know it isn't the end-all-be-all of musical life in a parish, but- IF you are interested in congregational singing, you simply cannot introduce a bunch of new music all the time. Heck, if you are interested in really good choral singing you usually can't introduce a bunch of new music all the time, either.

Theo

Now you have music which is not sung well for the sake of variety. I'm not sold. It sounds very stressful.

Let me clarify. Currently my choir consists of a professional quartet and 8-10 volunteers. Since there are a few professional singers, we can manage more music than most volunteer choirs. But it seems to me that my choir director likes to program more music than the choir can manage. He wants to do what the professional choirs do. We can sing the congregational Mass settings well. We also use several Anglican Communion Service settings, and we sing those well because we have known them for years. But last year, for some strange reason, the choir director added several new Renaissance polyphonic settings to our repertoire. We love the pieces, but they are a challenge for most volunteers. We didn't have enough time to digest the music thoroughly. As a result, it was not uncommon for us to experience pitch and rhythmic problems at Mass.

My instinct is to go for quality instead of quantity. But I don't know if I'm being too picky here. Of course, we can't expect a non-professional choir to sing those a cappella Mass settings like the pros. Losing pitch is a common problem for non-professional choirs. Should I be content that we attempt them and can sort of pull them off at Mass? Is it unreasonable for me to expect a higher level of performance? Mind you, the average parishioners would not notice most of the mistakes and would be happy to hear most of the choral music. (A more likely complaint would be the organ being too loud.)

melofluent

My instinct is to go for quality instead of quantity. But I don't know if I'm being too picky here. Of course, we can't expect a non-professional choir to sing those a cappella Mass settings like the pros. Losing pitch is a common problem for non-professional choirs. Should I be content that we attempt them and can sort of pull them off at Mass? Is it unreasonable for me to expect a higher level of performance? Mind you, the average parishioners would not notice most of the mistakes and would be happy to hear most of the choral music. (A more likely complaint would be the organ being too loud.)

Theo, your contributions here are very welcome and valuable and we're all glad to have you among our motley crew.
That said, look at the self-referential mentions in just one of your paragraphs. Notice the rationale of the terminus of contentment that serves the programming of different ordinaries weekly. Look at the somewhat cynical regard for the faithful in the pews that abets the drive to exhibit talent and repertoire over service to the liturgical events and actions.

Have you shared among yourselves, even with the ringers and director, why you're doing what you're doing?

mrcopper

No, they don't...they sing music that they have sung before while learning some new music over a period of time.

Well, I'm sorry, but I bet I've sung in way more protestant churches than you have, and that just is not true. The few choir members who have sung for forty years might get some repetition, but most choir members don't have that longevity and every week's anthem is new.

As to Communion music, yes, you're right, Cb, I meant to say "offertory". The prot's are not going to miss doing that every week.

Just arguing, here ... Melofluent's comment is apt, a few above, and I agree.

Adam Wood

Well, I'm sorry, but I bet I've sung in way more protestant churches than you have

I'm just gonna go out on a limb here and say that I would put money on "The Catholic Choirbook" (Noel "Frogman" Jones) having much more of his finger on the pulse of mainstream, mainline liturgical Protestant practice than, um... you.

Or most anyone else, for that matter.

Adam Wood

Moreover- the notion that any amateur, or even semi-pro choir is singing SEVERAL new pieces of music EVERY. SINGLE. WEEK. is ridiculous

mrcopper

R u serious? One of my earliest choir experiences was in the 70's, singing as a young 20something with the 10th Presbyterian Church, led by the then somewhat well known Robert Elmore, in central Philadelphia. He did two anthems EVERY . SINGLE . WEEK. He did whatever hymns were called for, usually two or three, as I recall. And he did the occasional full Bach cantata for church concerts, introducing me to that marvelous wealth of music. He was a fairly talented composer, and a very good organist, and the choir did his modernish anthems prettty regularly. And bless him, he even did one of my earliest compositions in church as an anthem, and the volunteer choir with a professional quartet of section leaders just did it without blinking or (in my hearing) complaining. One and a half rehearsals a week. Naturally he started rehearsing the more challenging works many weeks ahead of their scheduled sing-date.

It was a high point, but I've also sung as a volunteer in many, many church choirs (it has been Presbyterian, Episcopalian, and Catholic for me) and the protestant churches do the same thing, if less gloriously, every week.

How much money r u talking about?

melofluent

The problem, gentlemen, is not the number of anthems/motets sung each Sunday, but the intent of the programmer who institutes that culture. mrcopper is correct that many church choirs can handily perform two choral works 52 Sundays, mine included. But, we've been together (the core) for 20+ years with hundreds of pieces under our belt. You (and I) are in turn correct to question "why?" And at face value, without reference, such practice seems ridiculous and flies in the face of reasonable liturgical practice. But the old Sistine Screamers sang much more than two choral settings of propers and ordinaries, murdering ears for decades, and that was licit AND ridiculous. "Lex" is defined more than just law. It is also rule as in a ruler, or measure device, a guide. All good things in good measure.

Adam Wood

licit AND ridiculous

Another good blog title.

---

I'm sorry- I don't know why I'm being combative right now.

Personally- other than the one I work for and the other's in this same diocese, I don't know what the heck goes on in most Protestant churches. They could do a full Broadway musical twice a week for all it matters to me.

I see no VALUE in constantly increasing the quantity of musical repertoire at such a high rate. I think it would be exceedingly difficult in most (Catholic) places.

mrcopper

Well, Adam, consider this: luckily for living composers, community choruses tend to want to do new (to them) music all the time, except maybe for a regular return to "The Messiah". While it has nothing to do with religion, why shouldn't a group of singers in (some) church want to do the same thing?

CharlesW

If you have a choir, accompanist, and director who can do new music that often, then go for it. My choir would fall apart if I even asked for more than a couple of anthems a month.

noel jones, aago

Adam,

You mean, among other things, singing in the choir led by a major concert organist (in a NYC church where I played weddings and chapel services for him) who had been a student of Elmore's along with an octet of Metropolitan Opera studio singers every Sunday....and a wife who was picked to play the world premiere of a piece by Robert Elmore and, when I was able to get her to meet him he said, "Oh...I guess I'd better sit down and get that written, eh?"

When I found out he was in the building I insisted they interrupt things and take her in - they were not happy until they found out why when she and he talked.

Theo

Notice the rationale of the terminus of contentment that serves the programming of different ordinaries weekly. Look at the somewhat cynical regard for the faithful in the pews that abets the drive to exhibit talent and repertoire over service to the liturgical events and actions.

Have you shared among yourselves, even with the ringers and director, why you're doing what you're doing?

Melofluent: I'm just a volunteer singer in the choir. My fellow choir members and I have no say on the choice of repertoire. Each summer, my choir director plans the Mass settings, anthems, and organ music for the whole year. Truly I feel that the amount of music is overwhelming for a mostly volunteer choir. I like all of the music, but the choir can excel only about half of it. I have some training in music myself, so I can tell when we lose pitch or when we are not locked in rhythmically. But many parishioners and even some volunteer choir members cannot hear the problems unless the problems are very obvious.

Melofluent, I don't understand why you had to take issue with my comment. I honestly wanted to know how other forum members feel. Should a non-professional choir strive for perfection? Or does it depend on the repertoire? I.e. strive for perfection for the familiar music and lower the standard somewhat for new or difficult repertoire.

melofluent

Theo, I'm not attacking the program as it is at your choir. The answer you seek is in my last sentence you quote above. To your general questions in your last sentence, I've said we are called to live life "to the full," so, yes, strive for perfection no matter what "level" of music is before you. It seems simple enough to me.

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