Solfiege question
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Is re as in red or as in ray, a drop of golden sun?
  • BGP
    Posts: 215
    In my schola we say 'ray'. Pick one and stick with it.

    your question will probebly start a debate about the correct pronunciation of the letter e
    Thanked by 1francis
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I have always taught it as 'ray' but now my sons 4th grade music teacher is using re and its confusing the poor lad.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    When I learned it we used numbers.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    Dough - we bake, until it's done.
    Ray - the crimson setting sun.
    Me - just me, I am the one.
    Fa - too much, I will not run.
    Sole - I eat on Friday night.
    La - when doubled, follows tra (or fa).
    Tee - a shirt that's really light.
    That will bring us back to
    Bread - it's done, it's really done...
    Thanked by 4JulieColl Chris Hebard Spriggo Felicity
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I have been taught "re", as in Latin. It has the added benefit of reinforcing the Latin pronunciation.

    If they sing "ray", don't be surprised when your choir starts singing "miserayray!"
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen SkirpR Ben francis
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    i guess it depends on how you pronounce the word "ray."

    Also, what is all this "Do" business?
    Was it "do" in 11th Century Arezzo?
    It was not!
    Is outrage!!
    Thanked by 4CharlesW Gavin Andrew_Malton Andrew Motyka
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    It wasn't "Do" - but then was it "Ut"ter nonsense?
    Thanked by 3Gavin Spriggo Ruth Lapeyre
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Yes, the syllables are originally from the Latin antiphon for St. John the Baptist:

    UT queant laxis REsonare fibris, MIra gestorum FAmuli tuorum, SOlve polluti LAbii reatum, Sancte Iohannes.

    Except UT was replaced by DO, and SI turned into TI.

    Eccesiastical Latin pronunciation is heavily influenced by Italian (because of it being the vernacular spoken at the Holy See for centuries).

    In Italian, the 'e' vowel varies greatly depending on context from 'eh' as in 'red' all the way to 'e' in 'chaotic' (before you start moving your tongue or jaw to get to the vowel produced by the 'o').

    In Latin (and solfege), 'e' should not be pronounced "AY-ee" (with a diphthong) as we say in English for the word 'ray' 'bay' 'day' etc.

    I assume because this is an easy thing for English speakers to fall into, the Holy See has given the guideline that Ecclesiastical Latin 'e' be pronounced 'eh'.

    For another viewpoint without recourse to any Church legislation, being unconscious of pronouncing the vowel 'ay' (AY-ee) with the diphthong will do very unfortunate things to your choir's intonation.
    Thanked by 2marajoy ClergetKubisz
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I'm also a fan of MATTHEW J. MELOCHE'S solfege mnemonic:

    Do, a deer, a female deer,
    do, another female deer.
    Do, so many female deer,
    do, do do do do do.
    Thanked by 2SkirpR irishtenor
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I'm also a fan of MATTHEW J. MELOCHE'S solfege mnemonic:

    Do, a deer, a female deer,
    do, another female deer.
    Do, so many female deer,
    do, do do do do do.


    Adam, it sounds like you'll love my soon-to-be-released treatise, THE SKIRPAN METHOD, a progressive method for teaching children (but really people of all ages) to sing the RECTO TONO PROPERS.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood Chris Hebard irishtenor
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    I teach solfege when vocalizing and when sight-reading in English as follows:

    Doe
    Ray
    Me
    Fa
    Sole
    La
    Tee
    Doe

    BUT......I also use IPA for our Latin chants......Pow per, Ser voos

    The kids aren't having any trouble diffentiating between the syllables and often make a game of it.

  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Since you brought up IPA... It's very helpful in these situations to describe exactly more precisely what vowels one means. I would highly recommend all people concerned with pronunciation learn to use basic IPA when discussing it on here so as to avoid misunderstandings!

    In that case, the IPA I would use for solfege (ideally) would be:

    [dɔ], or [do] if you can do it without the diphthong, but never [doʊ]
    [rɛ], or [re] if you can do it without the diphthong, but never [reɪ]
    [mi]
    [fɑ] or [fa]
    [sɔ] or [so] if you can do it without the diphthong, but never [soʊ]
    [lɑ] or [la]
    [ti]

    Your example "Pauper servus" would be [paʊ pɛɾ sɛɾ vus]

    Some people make a big deal about the 'l' in 'sol.' It does not bother me when used, but every other syllable in the scale is without a final consonant, so I do find it inconsistent to use it. Why use the 'l' in 'sol' but not the 'b' in 'lab' or the 's' in 'res' ?
    Thanked by 5Gavin mrcopper CHGiffen Musicteacher56 jpal
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    While it's "ray" in the song, I have always believed that the proper spelling was "re," and I'm glad to be reminded of it's origin in Ut Queant.
    The way I learned solfege, everything gets two letters:
    do
    re
    mi
    fa
    so
    la
    ti

    ETA: and pronounced with proper ecclesiastical latin, they all therefore get the correct pronunciation with that spelling, right?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    As to RE, Skirpr nailed it:
    [rɛ], or [re] if you can do it without the diphthong, but never [reɪ]
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I try to reinforce the solfege scale, with unified vowels, in a way identical to SkipR. IPA is invaluable to me in building beautiful vowels.

    [hey, SkipR!! are you a voice teacher, too?]
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    [Not per se, just a choral director with a terminal degree.]
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Dr. Don Ester, director of choral activities at Ball State University gave a choral music seminar last year, and he stated that it should be eh, or like red, because it can turn into a diphthong very easily and become the wrong vowel sound.
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Ok I am good with 're' as in red or bed.

    I don't know IPA, please provide a good resource.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    Homer
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    IPA is pretty simple, once you get used to it. I think I can whip up a simple introduction to IPA basics right here.

    First absolute rule is that everything transcribed in IPA is put between brackets: [ ]

    Second rule is that every IPA symbol corresponds to more or less one sound. Unlike English where the same letters can be pronounced quite differently depending on context, there is almost no context involved in interpreting IPA transcriptions.

    I'll start with the vowels, where most of the difficulty (and benefit) are:

    [a] = bright 'ah' as in the Boston accent "Pahk the cah in Hahvahd yahd." This mostly occurs in foreign languages, but does occur in English diphthongs (see below).
    [ɑ] = dark 'ah' as in the first syllable of "Father"
    [æ] = as in the words "cat" "hat" "bat"

    [ɛ] = called "open E" as in "get" "met" "pet"
    [e] = called "closed E," this is typically not used in English except for diphthongs (see below).
    [ɜ] = vowel sound in words "learn" "turn" "burn" (with a flat tongue - no cowboy r-color)

    [ɪ] = vowel sound in words "bit" "nip" "dip"
    [i] = vowel sound in words "keep" "deep" "meat"

    [ɔ] = called "open O," this is the traditional (perhaps British-sounding) vowel sound of the words "awe" "dog" "God" although there is a tendency in many regions of the USA to now pronounce these words with [a] or [ɑ]
    [o] = called "closed O" this is typically not used in English except for diphthongs (see below).

    [ʌ] = vowel sound in words "up" "nut" "dump"
    [ʊ] = vowel sound in words "put" "book" "soot"
    [u] = vowel sound in words "you" "stoop" "hoop"

    There are also lots of vowels in English that are automatically diphthongs - where we automatically glide to a second vowel after the first vowel. In singing English, the second sound of each diphthongs should not be eliminated completely, but must be minimized and saved for the very last instant that the vowel is held. (Diphthongs should not be sung at all for a single Latin vowel, which is the whole purpose of the instruction that prompted this thread!)

    The common English diphthongs are:
    [eɪ] = as in "ray" "pay" "hey"
    [aʊ] = as in "house" "now" "ouch"
    [aɪ] = as in "high" "die" "height"
    [ɔɪ] = as in "boy" "noise" "toy"
    [oʊ] = as in "doe" "boat" "rope"

    [ə] = There is also a "neutral" vowel called the schwa which is used in some weak syllables like the first syllable of the word "appeal." Some soloists choose to open that vowel to [ʌ] like "up" for increased resonance, but particularly in choral settings I feel keeping it forward with rounded lips (almost, but not quite like [u]) is just gorgeous. It does not occur in Latin.

    Those are the vowels. I'll do the consonants in another post.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Many consonants in IPA are pronounced just the same as you would expect. Most consonants can be grouped in pairs - unvoiced and voiced - in other words, one you use your vocal cords for and another you don't. (An interestring aside is that when we completely whisper, these pairs (or cognates) might be misunderstood if it weren't for context.)

    [p] and [b] as in "put" and "book"
    [t] and [d] as in "ten" and "den"
    [k] and [g] as in "cope" and "go"
    [f] and [v] as in "find" and "vine"
    [s] and [z] as in "sap" and "zap"

    There are also the sounds:
    [ʃ] = "sh" in "wish"
    [ʒ] = "s" in "pleasure"

    Note, these are frequently combined...
    [tʃ] makes "ch" as in "chill"
    [dʒ] makes "g" as in "gem"

    [θ] = "th" in "thin" and
    [ð] = "th" in "there"
    Note, the word "with" can be pronounced with either consonant at the end, but in most cases in singing, [ð] is to be preferred because it allows the voice (and pitch) to keep sounding through the consonant.

    The rest of the consonants don't come in voiced/unvoiced pairs:
    [m] as in "mute"
    [n] as in "note"
    [ŋ] as in "sang"
    [h] as in "hot"
    [l] as in "long"
    [j] as in "young" or "you"
    [w] as in "wine" - purists will use [hw] for "whine"

    R is complicated. Technically the "American R" is [ɹ] as in "red," but it gets more involved when following a vowel, and in those cases, we want to try to avoid it in singing anyhow - so I won't get into it.

    Many diction books simply use [r] all the time, which is technically the symbol for a rolled R.

    In Latin, where R is usually flipped instead of rolled, the symbol is [ɾ]

    Did I forget anything?
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    SkirpR, thank you so much for all of that: I've always wanted to learn all of that, but not being a voice major, I wasn't able to take the class in college. I appreciate it!
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    There are a handful of other sounds for French, German, Spanish, etc., but this is a good start for English (and Latin).
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    Very nicely rehearsed! As SkirpR points out, field conditions are 'more or less' that simple, and WP is as good a starting place as any for looking into the various complications.

    The aside on whispering voiced consonants might be a convenient spot to introduce secondary characteristics like aspiration (which can be notated by diacritics in IPA); there's a little more to go on than context alone. The puff of air that accompanies unvoiced English consonants and distinguishes p from whispered b is reversed in many Asian languages; when I tried transcribing Cantonese as a youngster I went through a lot of agonizing over whether a sound was not quite k or not quite g.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    My IPA knowledge stops just beyond what will inform good choral diction. Richard Mix demonstrates that as one moves from the what the field of vocal music has appropriated into legit linguistic studies, it gets much more in depth!
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Canadians are going to love this:

    I assume because this is an easy thing for English speakers to fall into, the Holy See has given the guideline that Ecclesiastical Latin 'e' be pronounced 'eh'.


    Eh?
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Actually, the Canadians are probably saying correctly. :)

    This illustrates why we should use IPA for these conversations.

    If the quoted comment postdated my IPA intro, it would have read:

    I assume because this is an easy thing for English speakers to fall into, the Holy See has given the guideline that Ecclesiastical Latin [e] be pronounced [ɛ].
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 489
    Did I forget anything?
    -
    bilabial fricative with digital interruptions.

    When I studied IPA we treated R ,L and W pretty much as a vowel when when united to the preceding vowel sound.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    When I studied IPA we treated R ,L and W pretty much as a vowel when when united to the preceding vowel sound.


    In spoken language, yes, but in singing one prolongs the actual vowel and minimizes those consonants to the point where they're in effect more distinct.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I always have an IPA at my side when singing in Latin. Helps to blend the all the words together.
    Thanked by 2Gavin Jahaza
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Thanks for th[æ]t [aɪpeɪ] summary! Why not post it in a new thread, SkirpR, so others might find it later on when searching for help? And do you put brackets around each sound when spelling ipaishly, or just around the word?
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Brackets go around anything that is in IPA. They only need to close when use of IPA [sisəz].
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Francis, your use of IPA just solidifies the beauty of being a Catholic. In so many circumstances, we are a both/and people. :)
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