Oh my gosh. This could be interesting.

That was my thought as well Ben. I'm still thinking on actually singing it in that context, (while it's technically outside the Mass...that is really splitting hairs) but on the other hand, it would be fabulous to sing at the Christmas fundraiser we are doing. The fundraiser is to enable the parish to sponsor two of our starving college students who want to attend Colloquium next summer but haven't got the money.

Wendi,

I have a different idea. (Yes, I hope you think it's better, but we'll just call it different until you pass judgment, assuming you're still willing to be judgmental).

There is a wonderful round which uses the text Non Nobis, Domine. It's easy to learn -- which I know because I've managed to teach it to elementary school children. That meets your Latin and parts-work requirement. It doesn't meet your Rudolph requirement, but surely that's not suitable for the building? Remember that the rule about music doesn't merely exert an impact on the Mass, but also receives an impact from the building. You wouldn't sing the National Anthem in a brothel, and so, I would think, you wouldn't use Rudolph in a parish church.

agreed. I don't think it matters that it's "outside of" Mass. It's not appropriate for the building. There is nothing remotely sacred about it - neither the tune, nor the words.

More seriously, however, I have to agree. Putting Rudolph in Latin is charming, but it's almost more confusing in the situation that it's in church, where people are for a Mass (even if it's after Mass). If they were there for a concert with lots of other Christmas music (most of it sacred), I might be swayed, but in the situation Wendi described, it's a choice I wouldn't make.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOUvvsce1gA

Charles, that joke is older than I am. I still chuckle when I hear it. :-)

While I can certainly see the point that it shouldn't be sung in church (and as I said previously I was already leaning that way)...

I certainly do NOT agree that it would be inappropriate at a social function (which is what a fundraiser certainly would be). But then I have sense of humor, as does most of our congregation.

and now I bid you adieu.

Wendi
I don't think anyone meant to personally diss the pastor or the proposal. The responses were quite pro forma.
Simple solution requiring no professional help- Google translate it, phonetically do the best you can not worrying about any Russians present, teach it in two parts and have at it, confident is not outrage to our Lord who suffers the children unto Him.
Other option- O Come Little Children
Blessings,
Dearest

That's a good point about copyright issues--since it's still under copyright, it would be a derivative work to create a new choral version in Latin, and that would require seeking and receiving permission from the copyright holder (St. Nicholas Music).

However, an SATB version in Latin already exists and is available through Hal Leonard--Rudolphus Rubrinasus:
http://www.halleonard.com/product/viewproduct.do?itemid=48004452&lid=0&keywords=073999620757&searchcategory=00&subsiteid=32&;

Adam, if a copyrighted Latin version did not exist, I might agree with you. However, I do not see how it can be a parody since St. Nicholas Music also owns the copyright to the choral Latin arrangement and could view another Latin work as a derivative work of their copyrighted Latin version (not as a parody of the English).

hand out your Google with phonetic transliteration

Simple, yes, but this probably wouldn't end up fitting the melody.

a Slav friend handy

I'm confused. Why a Slav friend for Latin?

I think we all have a tendency towards complexity. Try not to recommend zebras when a horse will do fine.

Yup. My advice is buy the published octavo Ignoto linked to. Doesn't get much simpler than that!

(Time is money, and it's a particularly Catholic tendency to spend so much time getting something for free, it would have been worth it to just have spent the money.)

Dearest...et al...No worries, if I hadn't wanted honest opinions I wouldn't have posed the question. The only responses which irritated me were the ones that implied (or outright stated) that even the question was scandalous or that a secular song should never be sung in a church building.

I freely admit that when the suggestion was first made I did fleetingly consider singing it after the dismissal. Which is where I stood when I asked the question originally.

Upon further reflection I did come to the determination that it wasn't really a good idea, especially considering that I'm trying to improve the music here.

Asking the question here and receiving your opinions did help me in that process. I've never made any secret of the fact that I am a learning choir director. I greatly appreciate your collective wisdom and advice which is why I asked the question here in the first place.

I've just never appreciated those who try and teach by belittling. It annoys me and always has.

I knew I was irritated and also tired which is why I bid you all goodnight, rather than post something very uncharitable.

On the other hand, our choir situation is very collaborative because I've built it that way-people invest more into something if they know that their input is listened to and appreciated. That being the case I didn't want to dismiss the suggestion out of hand.

I thought a good compromise would be to sing it at the fundraiser, which takes place in the social hall not the sanctuary and involves food, fun and fellowship.

Evidently I didn't articulate that well...or maybe some people just need to go find their sense of humor.

And yes Skip I quite agree buying the published Octavo is the best way to go, so I'll be taking that suggestion to choir practice this week.

Actually, the fundraiser sounds like it will be fun. Good luck on the fundraising. I hope the money pours in.

@marajoy,

Why? This a public forum with people who (you should know by now) are VERY committed to reverent, sacred music in churches, who are free to give whatever response they wish when asked a question. If you wanted approval from people to do this idea, and didn't want anyone to criticize it, then perhaps you should have posted it elsewhere, like at, oh, I don't know, the NPM forums or somewhere.

(Or simply not told us it would be in a church...)

I thought a good compromise would be to sing it at the fundraiser, which takes place in the social hall not the sanctuary and involves food, fun and fellowship.

Evidently I didn't articulate that well...or maybe some people just need to go find their sense of humor.

So now it's forbidden to sing secular music in the parish social hall?

We've recently gone through a few iterations of the secular music in church (outside of Mass) debate, and we don't need to rehash it all here. Let's just leave it at the fact that there are a number of differing opinions on that issue here at the forum.

But seriously, if anyone believes it inappropriate to sing Rudolph in the parish social hall, let me be the first to tell you that you hold an extreme view.

Since tempers seem to have flared a bit, I think I should point out that I, at least, didn't get the impression that Wendi was talking about the parish hall. In fact, until the post in which she specifically mentioned parish hall, it wasn't even in the thread. There was some mention about the parish fundraiser, but if a person isn't reading closely, making the connection probably won't occur, especially since the post prior to that mentioned the church.

So, what she said; she didn't articulate it well at all.

So, what she said; she didn't articulate it well at all.

Yep.

@marajoy...no worries. I wasn't seeking approval, merely opinions. And honest disagreement (or criticism if you prefer) bothers me not at all.

However, disagreeing with someone doesn't require being disagreeable about it.

I know some people enjoy that kind of online spitting contest, but I don't. I'm sorry if it bothers you that I said so.

Since you're open to hearing opinions, here's one against singing it: this isn't an ordinary secular song. It's fine to sing a secular song in the parish hall: e.g., at a wedding reception.

Advent and Christmas are already hidden under a heap of commercialism and sentimental mythology. This pop song is part of that mythology, which distracts people from what Christmas is about. It's commercially invented entertainment with no connection to the real Saint Nicholas either. We don't need to feed that.

In the end, singing a silly song in Latin is not a big deal: it's not a sin; but if we forego this song, it's a reminder to us that we want to communicate the truth to the kids, not myths and fables.

And there is no shortage of jolly songs for the season which may be sung in whatever language you wish.

So now it's forbidden to sing secular music in the parish social hall?

That was not stated until 12:42 today. Hence, the initial strong opinions.

FWIW... A few years ago, Fr Roderick Vonhögen walked through this translation as a way to teach Latin on his podcast. I thought it was hilarious. None of my schola members expressed any interest at all, the just wanted to sing sacred music at Mass. I found out that my sense of adventure was different than others'.

I was afraid someone was going to ask for that. Here's an introduction to his prolific works. But I Googled through his archives (he's probably done terabytes of stuff) and can't find it, and I can't find it in my records either. I didn't keep copies of each of the practice CDs I made for the schola, which is where I had put it.

Sorry. If I get a flash of insight, I'll let you know, but it looks like I've lost it.

Now THAT'S funny.

OK... I knew I would get a lot of requests for the score, so I am posting it here:

download score

listen to simulation

You can also sell these to raise even more funds...