Gloria with refrain
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    There is something in the back of my mind that ICEL has said that settings of the Gloria that use a refrain for the congregation are not really acceptable and the setting should be sung right through the text. I just sat through one that was quite Broadwayish--exuberant and joyful but I am not sure suitable to the sacred action of the Liturgy.

    Can anyone cite chapter and verse on that?

    Thanks.

    Kenneth
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Come to think of it, wasn't there something saying that the text of the Agnus Day may not be added to?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    this:
    quite Broadwayish

    is more concerning than this:
    use a refrain for the congregation


    also, this:
    exuberant and joyful
    is a good thing for the Gloria.

    As to your question- I believe there is no such specific restriction. There is an allowance of small repetition (Glory, Glory to God! Glory to God in the Highest! The Highest!), but refrains seem like a rule-stretch.

    Also, remember: there's no specific restriction on singing the Sanctus backwards, either. It would take a very large repository to catalog the infinitude of things you're not supposed to do.
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 434
    There is certainly allowance for repetition of phrases -- that's been going for centuries in polyphonic Masses. I don't know about whether making the first phrase of the hymn "counts" as legitimate repetition, but since the revised missal translation I tend to shy away from Gloria settings with refrains, simply because it disrupts the flow of the text.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I remember hearing that originally, with RM3, refrains were prohibited but that the bishops later changed their minds. Whether or not this is the case, I don't know. I just remember hearing it. In any case, I think there is definitely a preference for through-composed settings.

    Full Disclosure: I use a through-composed setting EXCEPT on Christmas Eve/Day and Easter Vigil/Day when I use Chepponis' Melodic Gloria. Partly due to participation concerns, mostly to do with the fact we employ a brass quartet/quintet s at those liturgies and the brass parts are quite nice.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    Interestingly enough, though, I have had a congregation member express disappointment when he doesn't get to sing the full text!
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    All this, I believe comes from "Sing to the Lord," which, if I remember correctly, expresses a preference for through-composed Glorias, but reluctantly admits those with a refrain. Although there was talk of banning the refrain-style Glorias with the implementation of MR3, the USCCB decided to continue to permit them, but stress that through-composed was the ideal.

    Compare this issue to the Agnus Dei, where "Sing to the Lord" permitted tropes (Jesus Loaf of Wheat..., Jesus my best friend..., etc.), but then with the implementation of MR3, USCCB withdrew that permission (likely with pressure from Rome).
    Thanked by 4bkenney27 Adam Wood Liam CHGiffen
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Ah, I said 'exuberant and joyful but I am not sure that it was suitable for the liturgical action." I think 'broadwayish' makes it clear I meant 'exuberant and joyful in the wrong way."

    Very helpful discussion.

    Kenneth
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Musicteacher56
    Posts: 621
    With all the Broadway music going on in churches today, maybe those of us at CMAA should prepare "Tradition" from FOTR as our processional? "And who does pastor teach, to chant and chant and chant, preparing us for Heaven, by going back in years? The Director!!!!, Tradition!"
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    tropes (Jesus Loaf of Wheat..., Jesus my best friend..., etc.),


    Jesus, metaphor
    Jesus, reg'lar guy
    Jesus, lefty stooge
    .
    .
    .

    It's like being with the Paulists again...
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    I'm reminded of the old saying, "When I see a piece of music which says REFRAIN, I usually DO." The absolute beauty of Ted Marier's refrain-style Gloria notwithstanding, I have otherwise NEVER seen a refrained setting of the Gloria worthy of an 8-year-ild's birthday party, let alone the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
    Thanked by 1CindyCecilia
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