Thinking about hymns
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Pope Benedict famously said, "We cannot say that one song is as good as another."

    When choosing among hymns, separating the wheat from the chaff, doubtless we all think about the various hymns' quality. And surely there is more to our thinking than "The congregation knows this one," or "Everyone knows this one is drivel, so we won't use it unless forced," or "I like how it sounds on verse 4 with the descant and alternate harmonization."

    We also think for ourselves about the texts, right? But how?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I normally read the Gospel for the day first. Then, I ask myself, "What is Jesus telling us in this Gospel? What is His message?" When I have answered that question, I can choose music that fits the message. If I am having trouble from there, I turn to the other readings for the day, and if that doesn't yield anything satisfactory, I just fill the liturgical need. For example, if the message is about loving one another, and that people will know we are His disciples from that, I would pick "Ubi Caritas" for some part of the Mass, probably Offertory or Communion, for now let's say I picked it for Communion. Sticking with the same message, you could do "They'll Know We Are Christians" for the Recessional, and you still have two more slots to fill. Let's say that the other readings don't yield any results, so now I just have to fill the other two slots in a liturgically appropriate manner. Let's also go with the current season, because that's important, too, so we'll say it's Ordinary Time. For the Entrance, you could do "Joyful, Joyuful, We Adore You" (it's appropriate for an Entrance Processional most of the time), and for the Offertory, you could pick "Panis Angelicus" (I like the Lambilotte, but I've also done my own setting). If songs like "They'll Know We Are Christians" don't float your boat, then you could always do something different, as long as it fits the liturgical season and the part of Mass where it occurs. So, here's the list for the Mass I proposed:

    Gospel: Love one another

    E-Joyful, Joyful, We Adore You
    P-Panis Angelicus
    C-Ubi Caritas
    R-They'll Know We Are Christians (or Celtic Alleluia: The Sending Forth)

    Of course, there would be many, many more possibilities based on that Gospel, and what hymnal you work with.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    As a Church we have a long history of combining Scripture texts, commenting on them, and making Liturgy with them. Some hymns are consonant with this habitual Catholic sensibility, and some are less so.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    We also think for ourselves about the texts, right? But how?


    YES! But... I DON'T KNOW!

    I mean....

    Once a hymn text has made it into my personal "approved" or "inappropriate" brain-folders, I don't think about it too much any more. When Psalm 23 comes up in the Lectionary, I never really wonder whether or not "The King of Love My Shepherd Is" is an appropriate hymn choice (I like to do it for Communion, by the way). On the other hand, no matter what the Gospel is on a Sunday, I will never, ever program "God Has Chosen Me." I can't keep rethinking it.

    Some songs are borderline for me, and I fuss over them every time they come up as possibly appropriate (in terms of the Lectionary). Generally, if something is borderline, I don't do it if I can think of (or find) something that fills the same "purpose" or "idea" and is better. This is why continuing to expand one's own (and one's congregation's) repertoire is so important: bit by bit by the chaff falls away on its own as you realize that you could sing this better piece instead of that not as good one, and then this even better one instead of that. Slowly but surely, "Like a Shepherd" gets replaced with "Shepherd Me O God," and then with "The King of Love My Shepherd Is."

    So part of "is this hymn text any good?" or even "good enough?" is a question "is it the best I can do right now?" There was a time in my life when I couldn't do any better than "Song of the Body of Christ." Now, if I just need a generic Communion hymn I'm more likely to use "Humbly We Adore Thee" or (if I'm trying to emphasize the community aspect of worship, as SotBoC does) "Come Risen Lord and Deign to Be Our Guest."

    But what set of common criteria do I bring to any individual text to decide if it is fit? I don't know if I can enumerate it exactly...

    +Doctrinally sound (I'm okay with mildly ambiguous, as long as I think it can be reasonably understood in a doctrinally sound way-- and it's only one text out of many that are clear and good)

    +Poetically worthwhile

    +Clear and transparent on first reading
    BUT
    +Rich enough to sustain further study

    +Not weird

    Personally (and I know others disagree with this):
    +Avoids use of the word "Man" to describe humanity generally
    (I have no issues with male-pronouns for God, BTW. But the "man" thing really bothers me, so I just avoid it in my own programming. The Hymnal 1982 edited most of those out anyway- perhaps the only major editing decision of that committee I agree with.)
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Yes, this makes sense, Adam, and I have the same experience. Once I've thought about a hymn and consigned it to a box, "use as much as humanly possible," "O-kay, serviceable and not egregious," or "Only if the Polish ambassador calls the nuncio about the music for his nephew's funeral and the nuncio calls my bishop who calls the vicar who calls my pastor, who calls me in to say we have to sing this hymn," then I don't often pull it out of the box to examine the hymn, except for fun.

    The only difference I'd have with the rest of your criteria, besides, "Man," is that "doctrinally sound" isn't nearly enough for me. I think hymns should be theological marvels, made singable.

    This morning I was looking at Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken, which is just such a marvel.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    I want an example of a weird hymn that has already passed the preceding tests.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I want an example of a weird hymn that has already passed the preceding tests.


    I know Kathy likes it, but Lord of All Hopefulness strikes me as weird for a hymn. Not so much I would complain about it, but enough that I don't program it myself.

    I think hymns should be theological marvels, made singable.


    Well, now you're talking about what makes a hymn idea, not just usable.
    And I agree with you- which goes to the ever-better-and-ever-better process I described above.

    (It also guides my own writing, whenever possible.)
    Thanked by 2Andrew_Malton Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Actually, for me, Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken is weird, because it is usually sung to Austria, a tune which has Nazi connotations.

    There's one other weird thing that is the result of a shift in meaning. A great hymn by Charles Wesley, Come, O Thou Traveller Unknown, unfortunately uses an old image for compassion, "To me, to all, Thy bowels move/ Thy nature and Thy name is love." We use that expression quite differently. It used to mean something like, "I feel compassion for you, in the depths of myself."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    (It also guides my own writing, whenever possible.)

    Of course it does, which is why I was perplexed by the laissez-faire attitude I thought you were expressing earlier. These things really matter to you, I think.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    A great hymn by Charles Wesley, Come, O Thou Traveller Unknown, unfortunately uses an old image for compassion, "To me, to all, Thy bowels move/ Thy nature and Thy name is love."


    And people claim we should never edit hymn texts for use in worship...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Of course it does, which is why I was perplexed by the laissez-faire attitude I thought you were expressing earlier. These things really matter to you, I think.


    Depends on context.

    I wouldn't introduce newly mediocre to the world (in writing) or a congregation (in programming). But in a congregation that already has some mediocre in its repertoire, I don't feel (too) bad about some continued usage, assuming it's "okay" as opposed to "hrrmm - that's not really okay..."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    And people claim we should never edit hymn texts for use in worship...

    I doubt anyone says "never." Probably most people say, "less than GIA."
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "less than GIA."


    Even I say that.
    Thanked by 3Kathy CHGiffen Liam
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    What's weird about "Lord of All Hopefulness"?
    Thanked by 3Kathy CharlesW CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Andrew, I don't know exactly what the "preceding tests" are, unless they're similar to Kathy's critical observations on the other thread.
    But from the Great OZ, OCP, two that come to mind that have been mainstays for years now
    GATHER AND REMEMBER (Alstott)
    WOMEN OF THE CHURCH (Landry) hardly a hymn, but in the book.
    I know I've mentioned this before, but I have a spreadsheet which is updated every new BB issue, that assigns my grade A-F to each item in BB. I know I sent Wendi a copy or may have attached it onto the thread. This spreadsheet is forwarded to all leadership in music ministry for their consideration.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Andrew, I don't know exactly what the "preceding tests" are

    I assume he means the other items on my list that precede "Not weird."


    +Doctrinally sound (I'm okay with mildly ambiguous, as long as I think it can be reasonably understood in a doctrinally sound way-- and it's only one text out of many that are clear and good)

    +Poetically worthwhile

    +Clear and transparent on first reading
    BUT
    +Rich enough to sustain further study
    Thanked by 1Andrew_Malton
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I know I've mentioned this before, but I have a spreadsheet which is updated every new BB issue, that assigns my grade A-F to each item in BB.


    I don't know if you feel comfortable sharing the whole thing, but a list of your "A" choices at least would be helpful, I think, for many of us.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,189
    Adam: yes.

    All the weird ones I can think of which are also sound, poetic etc are along the lines of Kathy's sample (bowels move!) namely those which need to avoid a weird change in the language. "All in white shall wait around."

    I detect the risk of the thread getting hijacked if we think of any more.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I know the topic is texts, but my first concern is the music. Is the music bad? (We all know what I mean...) If so, I don't even look at the text. This weeds out a LOT of wondering about "voice of God" or if it's ok to say "bread" or whatever.

    Past that, it's just a "gut" thing. Does it resonate with me? Or does it set off alarm bells? Hard to quantify this. I guess some words set me off, like "each other" or "justice" or "interstellar space." I look at in what doctrinal worldview this hymn is CLEARLY written. (saying "bread" is not bad; saying "bread and body" is) I don't impart meanings to the text that the writers don't spell out. I also look at the basic quality, with an eye to the times. If a hymn is copyright 1970, I check for boring and obvious rhymes. If the composer died in 1870, I look for overly flowery and descriptive language.

    MOST IMPORTANT: give it the "7 year old boy" test. Read it through, with an eye to making the text dirty. I will never use "Woman at the Well", for example. I even avoid "All Hail the Power"; too easy to mispronounce "diadem," and we know Catholics believe in NFP...

    So I guess here are my REQUIREMENTS for a hymn text to be appropriate:

    - Set to appropriate music
    - Explicitly consonant doctrinal worldview with the context in which it is used
    - Intentional artistry of poetry
    - Won't make anyone giggle
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    Avoids use of the word "Man" to describe humanity generally
    (I have no issues with male-pronouns for God, BTW. But the "man" thing really bothers me, so I just avoid it in my own programming.

    On the other hand, it seems that some of us are showing our Jurassic(?) age:
    Traditionally, the word man has been used to refer not only to adult males but also to human beings in general, regardless of sex. There is a historical explanation for this: in Old English, the principal sense of man was ‘a human being,’ and the words wer and wif were used to refer specifically to ‘a male person’ and ‘a female person,’ respectively. Subsequently, man replaced wer as the normal term for ‘a male person,’ but at the same time the older sense ‘a human being’ remained in use. In the second half of the 20th century, the generic use of man to refer to ‘human beings in general’ (as in reptiles were here long before man appeared on the earth) became problematic; the use is now often regarded as sexist or old-fashioned.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    - Won't make anyone giggle

    So you won't be using my new hymn "To God I Pledge My Sacred Duty"?
    Thanked by 2Gavin Andrew Motyka
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    CHG - Are you arguing for or against my position? (I'm well aware of the history of the word's usage.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Maybe that would be better as a thread by itself.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I sort of agree- but I personally am not in the "convince other people that my gender-language opinions are right" business, and (in case anyone is in the convince-Adam-he's-wrong business: I have heard every detail of your arguments on this matter before, and can probably make them better than you can.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    OK, so if we want someone to talk to himself on an issue, you're the guy! :-)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    CHG - Are you arguing for or against my position?

    Yes.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • How is it that Adam manages to be right on so many things, and then rescues defeat from the jaws of victory?

    If I were still in a parish which used any vernacular hymns, I would forcefully insist on the use of the text which used man in the generic sense. I'm not going to rehearse any of the arguments here, since that's not the point of this thread, but seriously --- how can one get so close to an intelligent right answer and still go so horridly wrong??!

    If I may answer a slightly different one than posed: anthems and motets should be used carefully. Some texts are always appropriate, such as Ave Verum Corpus; some are appropriate for specific feasts, such as Circumduxit eam for the feast of St. Therese, the little flower; honoring Our Lady is proper, if done well.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    How is it that Adam manages to be right on so many things, and then rescues defeat from the jaws of victory?

    Practice.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    If I may answer a slightly different one than posed: anthems and motets should be used carefully. Some texts are always appropriate, such as Ave Verum Corpus; some are appropriate for specific feasts, such as Circumduxit eam for the feast of St. Therese, the little flower; honoring Our Lady is proper, if done well.


    I will second this general recommendation. This is a problem I have seen from the wackiest OF parishes to the most traditional EF parishes. There are certain hymns and motets which are more special when they are reserved to their appropriate place and time on the calendar.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    There are certain hymns and motets which are more special when they are reserved to their appropriate place and time on the calendar.


    Quite so.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,848
    Less than GIA? Do you mean something like:

    OCP < GIA < WLP < CMAA?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    OCP < GIA < WLP < CMAA?

    That's like comparing apples, oranges, strawberries, and suspension bridges.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Oh, and cgz, by the way:
    If you think I'm right about so many other things, maybe you could give me the benefit of the doubt and consider if I might (MIGHT) also be right about that.

    I mean- it's okay if you disagree with me, but you know- just sayin'.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I would not change the term man or men just to appease the politically correct among us. Especially, in texts written some years ago when that was accepted form. If I changed it today, it would be because it is not an accurate usage in the particular text. I never aspired to get along with everyone, and doing so is an impossibility. Those who disagree can go fly a fish! ;-)
  • Adam,

    If I saw even the slightest light at the end of the tunnel, I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I've read far too many convincing dissections of "inclusive" language to think that it has any place in a civilized society.

    Man
    Mankind
    Humankind
    Hupersonkind
    Huperchildkind
    Phylperchildkind (Hugh can only be male; Philip and Phyllis)
    Phylperchildindifferent

    How many times have we heard the text of "At the Lamb's high feast we sing" butchered.

    God in us made manifest?
    God in flesh made manifest?

    God in MAN made manifest!


    One who would valiant be, 'gainst all disaster?

    HE who would valiant be, gainst all disaster!

    Faith of our ancestral parental units?


    Besides, the Holy Office refused the request to leave out "men" in the Creed: who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven.

    Sorry, Adam. I'll happily agree with you on so much, but on this point you are dead wrong.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I, as typical (shielding myself from vegetables from both directions), will try to take a middle ground.

    Sometimes the imposition of inclusive language is a theological problem.

    And sometimes the imposition of inclusive language would do harm to poetry.

    But a lot of times, it's just people trying to remedy a problem with the English language. I'm sorry, but languages will evolve, it's a fact of life - and if nothing else a reason to advocate for at least some retention of Latin. Aside from the two reasons I lead with, I find the choice of inclusive language to be on the whole morally neutral.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    God in us made manifest?
    God in flesh made manifest?

    God in MAN made manifest!


    One who would valiant be, 'gainst all disaster?

    HE who would valiant be, gainst all disaster!


    Referring to Jesus as male isn't sexist (unless you're GIA). My opinion does not extend to these instances.


    Faith of our ancestral parental units?

    The original of this is not a hymn I would use, regardless.


    Besides, the Holy Office refused the request to leave out "men" in the Creed: who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from Heaven.


    English translation of essentially non-sexist Latin is a problem, and I why I think we should:
    a) retain Latin often
    b) remember that translations aren't the Mass, they are a gloss on it.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The original of this is not a hymn I would use, regardless.

    That would be to the detriment of the edification of the parish in song, IMO.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam,

    What's wrong with the faith of the Fathers?
    Or, do you have something against English converts?
    Or, are you at an EF Mass, which doesn't use vernacular hymns?


    Besides, the double-meaning "man" in "God in man made manifest" is valuable: Christ is both a human and a male; the alliteration is intentional: Man Made Manifest, and someone of your skill with the language should recognize such a poetic purpose.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Not a fan of so-called "inclusive language." It was always understood, particularly within church circles that "man" could mean either a male individual, a group of male individuals or a group of people of either male or female, ie. "man = "mankind" or "humanity."

    Even more recently, the term "mankind" has become seen to be sexist, and is often replaced with "humankind." It makes for awkward texts when altering old hymns.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Dead horse.... dearly-departed person of equine identity....
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Alternatively, it may be like a ride on the hobby-horse.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Actually, for me, Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken is weird, because it is usually sung to Austria, a tune which has Nazi connotations


    Though of course British churches didn't permit its use between 1939 and 1945, it's far too good a tune to lose.

    It is still the national anthem of Germany, though these days in truncated form because of those associations ( the Nazis tended to use the first verse only and then switch to something much nastier). I suspect these days such connotations are reinforced by a collective exposure to too many low budget History Channel "documentaries".

    What is weird to my ears is hearing "O Tannenbaum" tinkling though the malls just before Christmas, simply because I immediately hear it as The Red Flag, something with very different connotations.

    The people's flag is deepest red,
    It shrouded oft our martyr'd dead
    And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
    Their hearts' blood dyed its ev'ry fold


    Ot the schoolboys version, which I still prefer

    The people's flag is scruffy pink,
    Mum's washed it in the kitchen sink
    Thanked by 2Kathy ZacPB189
  • frankb
    Posts: 2
    At my English school, not too long after the war, we sang "Glorious things" to Cyril Taylor's Abbot's Leigh, a splendid tune for unison singing, taken at the right tempo. It's the tune I always hear in my head to those words. There's a King's recording of it. Didn't Taylor compose it during the war as an alternative to Austrian hymn?