Good liturgy selections vs. "the old hymns"
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    Recently a cantor at the parish came up to me and said how she misses the "old hymns from the parish". (The previous director picked all the parish favorites for liturgy, be not afraid, eagles wing, you are mine, like a child rests etc...., Haugen and Haas psalms were also used as the psalms as well.... That tells you where the program was when I came on board). Since my arrival and learning more about correct liturgy, I've been slowly moving towards "more appropriate liturgy" and only using those hymns mentioned earlier seldolmly (2-3 times a year during liturgy at most).

    Why are people hooked on "the old standards?" (ie: Schutte style music and music from the 70's and 80's). Most of the time when I've heard/played that music at a different parish I was employed at, it was done really bad and it made me miss organ based hymns.

    My answer to the cantor was that the hymns lists comes down to LITURGY! I'm not going to pick random hymns just so the congregation gets to sing ( I don't think she was asking for that, but asking for more "old favorites" to be used). I left my answer being- if it fits into the liturgy I'll consider the idea of using on the "old favorites".

    Not to pat myself on the shoulder but I'm proud of sticking to my guns and trying to produce the best music for liturgy possible. I also think it shows that I do care about my job and wanting to do it to the full potential instead of just using "the old favorites".

    Any thoughts or insight on this topic is greatly appreciate! Thank You fellow music directors who truly love their job as much as I do and take liturgy into consideration when picking out hymns!!

    PS. I also have the full backing of my pastors support 100% on my music director position.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    The fact that you have the support of the pastor is key. In places where I have been, programming the "old favorites" means keeping people in the pews: if you don't give them those hymns every once in a while, they'll leave the church; at least that's what I've been told.

    I've been doing the same thing, however, in my position as Director of Music Ministry: I haven't touched Eagle's Wings in over a year.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    PS. I also have the full backing of my pastors support 100% on my music director position.


    The holy grail of music directors. Cling to it with all your might and do nothing to piss him off.

    I was going to suggest perhaps throwing a bone by offering an outside-of-Mass hymn sing where people can get their fix of the GIA McDitties, but I think that would be revealing the naked emperor. To wit: without the "captive audience" of Sunday Mass artificially keeping the fluff tunes alive, they'd die like a fruit fly.

    Get ready for the pastor to receive letters complaining about this. Get your diplomacy and mollification skills honed to razor sharp with the goal of never letting the camel of banality back into the tent.
    Thanked by 4Jeffrey Tucker CHGiffen Jenny Kathy
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    @scott_W- I've planned a advent and Xmas lessons and carols in the fall season. Something the church has never done or participated before! So things are moving into a good position from a new music point of directon! I can't wait to see what people think when we do the "traditional advent I look from afar Palestrina piece" I probably should start looking for the Haugen paraphrased setting now!!! Haha!
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Don't look to just to the Haugen/Haas/Schutte repertoire. There are lots of people writing new hymns/religious music, some of which can be found suitable places in the liturgy of the mass. Look especially to anything "eucharistic" in nature.

    Also, there are plenty of hymns out there which seem to be old favourites. I was surprised just how popular "O Breathe on me, breath of God" to the Hymn Tune "St Columba" is with both the traditionalists and more... "modern" church. I think that Celtic tunes seem to remain popular for contemporary music.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    ... the goal of never letting the camel of banality back into the tent

    Letting a camel back into your tent would be a lot worse than banal.
    Thanked by 1jpal
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Those Haugen/Haas "hymns" are like earworms. Like elevator music, they get into your mind and repeat themselves mindlessly. It doesn't really take much thought or analysis to listen to them. Perhaps that is part of the reason for their popularity. Who knows? I have suppressed as many of them as I can for use at mass.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    We could be having this conversation in 1963... why do people hang on to the old hymns? Our new hymns are better. Why don't people realize that and drop all this St. Basil Hymnal and St. Gregory Hymnal stuff?

    It's a never-ending cycle of "my preferences are better than your preferences."

    The proper antiphons of the Mass are the way out of this cycle. Sing them.
    Thanked by 4CharlesW ClergetKubisz rich_enough francis
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Why are people hooked on 'the old standards?'"

    Really though, this is a good question. I think people should be treated with respect, not as idiots and demonic hedonists. I'm sure someone will say something along the lines of "They want Mass to be about themselves and they don't care about the Most Holy Unbloody Sacrifice of the Holy Mass!!!1!1" I prefer to think the best of the average pew-sitter.

    It boils down to "what I know." They like those songs because they are familiar. They grew up singing them, and many of their happiest experiences are associated with that music. Their piety is linked with it. Change the soundtrack, and you've taken away their piety.

    And don't forget "I like it." Those songs are in a genre some people enjoy. Sure, church isn't about "what I like," and I think some of these people even get that. But still.... they like it. Let's be honest here, a lot of people on this forum program a lot of Palestrina. Are you all doing it begrudgingly, because the Church asks for sacred polyphony? I will say boldly to all: if you are going to tell us your own taste has NOTHING to do with your preference for polyphony, you are being disingenuous. People like Glory & Praise music, so if they CAN have it at Mass (and musicman admits that he does use it, even if occasionally), why not?

    I'm NOT saying that any of this justifies the use of unsuitable music. The genre we are discussing is WHOLLY UNSUITABLE for Mass. It must NEVER be used - not once, not to please people, not EVER. (I'm sure someone will now argue against my supposed advocacy for this genre... such is the forum.) BUT... all that being said.... it's helpful to know WHY people like it. Why they will expect it. And accept that this is how people feel about it. Doesn't mean you have to cave in. Doesn't mean they have a right to be a jerk about it. It just boils down that you can't tell people how to feel about music.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen jpal ClergetKubisz
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    If I didn't bring this up, Frogman would. MM923, though you enjoy the pastor's full support, nevertheless become very familiar with the booklet and concept titled "When Sheep Attack." (You can search for many threads herein on the forum.) Do not ever underestimate the tenacious ability of even one disgruntled parishioner to dismantle systematically that support of your pastor by their tactics to discredit both your work and your person.
    Now more than ever sociologically, the faithful do not necessarily equate to all people in the pews, or who work in the offices or ministries including your own. And the lessons that HHFrancis is proffering daily and thereby misconstrued and co-opted by both the media and voices within the church, such as "you youth, get out there in your parishes and raise a mess," are totally and literally lost in translation. But to folks who want THEIR status quo, them's marching orders. I can't distill "When sheep attack" for you here (I hope you may already know the book and the dynamics) but I assure you, this caricature of local parish politics is known and employed daily in churches and parishes world wide.
    And many of us have dealt with it for decades, and continue to now. Few of us here have prevailed in the cause and service of right and fit worship. But many more have been shown the door whether they saw it coming or didn't.
    This sounds so adversarial, but it doesn't need to ever be so. As others have said, stay close to the pastor to be able to take his "pulse," but stay vigilant to what others say and do if it smacks of any sort of dissonance, and stay positive, focused and even unctious towards those who demonstrate inclinations to speak their mind, both in public and on the wire, so to speak. As is said, friends close, enemies closer.
    Welcome.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Glory & Praise music, so if they CAN have it at Mass (and musicman admits that he does use it, even if occasionally), why not?


    That reminds me of someone commenting about non-Catholic denominations and how by removing Sacraments, they found all kinds of substitutes to fill the holes. From the simple like sitting and listening to others' inspirations, to the strange like snake handling. He also noted that this can happen in the Catholic Church as well. When some need is not being met (sacramental availability, social events other than sports, devotionals, sacramentals, etc) they start cramming these into the Mass whether it is appropriate to the Mass or not. Or, Mass as "kitchen sink".
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    It boils down to "what I know." They like those songs because they are familiar. They grew up singing them, and many of their happiest experiences are associated with that music. Their piety is linked with it. Change the soundtrack, and you've taken away their piety.

    Gavin, I discovered this with our treble choir. Three years after introducing the Salve Regina at our parish, my wife took over the trebles and shortly discovered that it was their favorite song, hands down. "Average pew-sitters" on the younger side who have been coming to the parish for the last few years are requesting Salve Regina, Regina Caeli, Missa de Angelis for their weddings. Those who ask for St. Louis Jesuits' songs are not too torn up about being asked to select an alternate song that is in our hymnal.

    But funerals are a different matter -- On Eagle's Wings, Taste and See, Be Not Afraid...after decades of endless repetition, these songs are intimately connected to the Mass in the mind of so many faithful Catholics. Just this past week one family considered it a significant personal insult to the deceased when the above songs were not permitted (he had selected them himself five years ago).
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I rarely play for funerals, since I have someone else to do them. But I can assure you Beagle's Wings is alive and well in the funeral literature. I won't allow it at Sunday mass, but even the pastor is willing to look the other way at funerals.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 783
    Sentimentalism.
    Thanked by 2Jenny Felicity
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Which of the following is your question?

    1. Why do people like things?
    2. Why do people think that liking things is important liturgically?
    3. What do I do about it?

    Answers:

    1. Because reasons.

    2. Because they have been taught so.

    3A. Program the right music, whether people like it or not.
    3B. Program enough music people like, so that you don't get fired, so that you can keep doing (3A).
    3C. Help people learn to like other things.
    3D. Read Ecclesiastes over and over.
    Thanked by 3bkenney27 Gavin Earl_Grey
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    3B. Program enough music people like, so that you don't get fired, so that you can keep doing (3A).


    This reminds me of some flick with Christopher Walken, who reflecting on his years of running a business remarks, "I've just realized that I have spent my life paying my workers just enough so that they wouldn't quit, and they worked just hard enough to not get fired." :)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "I've just realized that I have spent my life paying my workers just enough so that they wouldn't quit, and they worked just hard enough to not get fired."


    That's called "Efficient Market Theory."
    Thanked by 1bkenney27
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