Hymn text discussion: Worthy is the Lamb (Manalo)
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive honor and glory. Worthy are the ones who believe to receive the goodness of God."

    Is this fine, dumb, or heretical?

    1. WE are not "worthy" to receive ANYTHING from God.
    2. I'm not sure who is implied by "the ones who believe," but from a theological point of view, I don't think anyone is "worthy" to receive the goodness of God.

    Am I wrong? What am I misunderstanding?
    Thanked by 1SBCpianoman
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Matter of perspective, MJ, I would think. Manalo isn't careless in my reckoning. If the song is sung without a self-referential POV, the theology works. IMO YMMV
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Perhaps this helps with part of your question. According to St. Thomas Aquinas, we cannot merit the "first grace" or the grace of conversion for ourselves:
    The gift of grace may be considered in two ways: first in the nature of a gratuitous gift, and thus it is manifest that all merit is repugnant to grace, since as the Apostle says (Romans 11:6), "if by grace, it is not now by works." Secondly, it may be considered as regards the nature of the thing given, and thus, also, it cannot come under the merit of him who has not grace, both because it exceeds the proportion of nature, and because previous to grace a man in the state of sin has an obstacle to his meriting grace, viz. sin. But when anyone has grace, the grace already possessed cannot come under merit, since reward is the term of the work, but grace is the principle of all our good works, as stated above (109). But of anyone merits a further gratuitous gift by virtue of the preceding grace, it would not be the first grace. Hence it is manifest that no one can merit for himself the first grace. (ST. I-IIae.114.5. respondeo)

    Something else to take into consideration is the derivation of the first sentence of your quotation, as it is in the Bible, in Revelation chapter 5, which doesn't seem to leave much room for horizontalization of the sentiments of worthiness. On the contrary, there is One alone, uniquely worthy. Everyone rejoices that He is worthy, and they forget their own honor:
    1I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.2And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”3And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.4Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it;5and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”
    6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.8When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.9And they sang a new song, saying,
    “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.10“You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.”
    11Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,12saying with a loud voice,
    “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.”13And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”
    14And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    But I'm sorry, I'm not sure I see your point, Kathy? My issue with the refrain text is that it goes OUT beyond Revelation, and stops talking about the worthiness of the Lamb, and makes up its own text that somehow decides that "ones" (plural) can be worthy.
    (ETA: I dont have a problem with the first half of the refrain!)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Exactly, marajoy. I'm agreeing with you entirely.
  • It's an attempt at me-too-ism. Follow the following, and then avoid the text in question:

    The Church is the mystical body of Christ.
    Each of us is a member of the Church (presuming that we have baptised.)
    We are the Church.
    We are the body of Christ.

    Let's be eucharist to each other.

    Or -- try this:

    "in the breaking of the Bread and in prayers"

    We're breaking bread.
    Why can't we (insert laundry list items here).
    Thanked by 1SBCpianoman
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    The song, I think, makes a good and solid theological point that by sharing in Christ's death, we become the Redeemed and therefore we BECOME worthy, but ONLY through Christ.

    I see nothing wrong with it; I think we must avoid a constant sentiment of how unworthy we are, to the point of over emphasizing it. The over amplifying of our personal unworthiness is also not good theology.
    Thanked by 2melofluent Spriggo
  • lmassery
    Posts: 404
    It's too bad that the song couldn't have just continued to use Revelation instead of departing from it. The scripture text, which is also the introit for Christ the King, goes "worthy is the lamb that was slain to receive power, divinity, wisdom, strength and honor: let glory and dominion be his for ever and ever." I think it is such a cool verse and it seriously bugs every time we sing this song that we depart into memememe land before finishing the sentence from Revelation. But it's otherwise a decent song and we did it today, in fact.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Memores igitur mortis et resurrectionis eius, tibi, Domine, panem vitae et calicem salutis offerimus, gratias agentes quia nos dignos habuisti astare coram te et tibi ministrare.

    We who are mindful of his death and resurrection offer to you, O Lord, the bread of life and the cup of salvation, giving thanks because you have accounted us worthy to stand before you and minister to you--Roman Missal, Eucharistic Prayer II
  • Marajoy,

    Since I don't have the text in front of me, can you provide it (or a link to it) so that I can re-evaluate my initial diagnosis?

    God bless,

    Chris
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    It seems to be saying that, by believing, people become worthy to receive the goodness of God.

    Perhaps it was meant as an effort to communicate something along the lines of "Blessed are those who have not seen but believed"; those who believe will be blessed: a teaching that merits being sung: a teaching about God's generosity.

    But the wording in this song brings in the concept of worthiness, so it comes across as a sort of affirmation or congratulation: Do you believe? Then you deserve! A sentiment for the Oprah generation.

    Belief by itself is not always enough to win God's favor: "Do you believe...? Even the demons believe, and tremble" (James 2:19)
    Thanked by 1MHI
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Let me just say that whether we end up with a thumbs up or thumbs down in the end, it seems to me that this is precisely the kind of detailed discussion that ought to be occurring, all the time, about the theology of hymn texts.
  • Marajoy,

    Now that I've read the text, I have the same conclusion, but for a slightly different reason.

    The text alternates between "telling God what he already knows" and talking about some undefined "we".

    To partially rectify the problem, the author could employ more subordinate clauses ("who", instead of "you").

    Maybe I'm missing something, but each verse of the text seems to end with a statement about what we've become -- but this statement seems only tendentiously connected to the rest of what is supposed to be a sentence.

    Adam Wood it's not.

    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Adam Wood it's not.


    Since there are many finer examples of excellent text writing available, I have to assume - given the context of a mediocre text which is also doctrinally ambiguous - that the point of comparison here is that my texts are mediocre, but at least they are doctrinally clear.
  • I don't know if anyone will see this, considering how old it is. I've been looking for a communion song for Easter that sounds reasonably attractive, that I can sing and accompany, and, more importantly, doctrinally solid. I like Manalo's "Worthy is the Lamb" song musically, and most of the words are Christocentric. But I've been extremely bothered by the second sentence, "Worthy are the ones who believe" !!!???!!! Not! This sentence is very humanistic. An insult to Jesus' worthiness. I played it with a guitarist at a daily Mass, and changed the words as I sang, to "worthy Not are those who believe".
    It might have worked if the 2-3 other singers had sung with me. I have tried unsuccessfully to find a contact number for OCP, to recommend that they send out accompaniment replacement pages to edit words. Of course, unfortunately the newest missals have not changed.

    I believe that the music and words that are sung in the Mass are extremely important. Too many Catholics are confused about what is happening during the Mass.
    Thanked by 1marajoy