• I am trying to decide if I should join either of these groups. Most of my colleagues here belong to NPM, but shy away from CMAA, so I am beginning to wonder if NPM is not as sacred-music minded as CMAA. If anybody could give me any information, I'd appreciate it.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    A quick look at both websites should give you a good amount of information.
    Thanked by 1MHI
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    not as sacred-music minded as


    That depends on your definition of "sacred music." I would assume most members of each group have made a decision about what their definition includes.
  • By sacred music I mean chant and/or hymnody that is not all "feel good" and "warm and fuzzy". The people that I've spoken with who are advocates for NPM have given me the impression that CMAA is not open to modern day music as hear it in churches today. I'm just asking for some opinions. I've read other threads on this forum regarding NPM, but nobody has given an opinion as to which one they would prefer if finances dictate they could only join one. At this point, I'm just inquiring.
  • Musicteacher 56,

    NPM (known to its detractors as Napalm) is, very simply, the professional wing of the big-three publishers.

    CMAA is, again simply, the professional wing of the Big Three publishers.

    At the CMAA convention (which they call the Sacred Music Colloquium) there are lectures, the chance to sing in a beautiful Mass and musicians dedicated to timeless music.

    At the NPM convention (which they call the NPM convention) there are talks and break out sessions, workshops, the chance to sample the latest music from the big three stables, and musician-presenters dedicated to the active participation of the assembly, with the presider.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    CMAA is, again simply, the professional wing of the Big Three publishers.


    Solesmes, The Vatican, and CC Watershed?
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    It's not really accurate, and quite over-simplistic to say that they are the professional wing of the big three.

    They allow the big three to present quite a bit but that is because the big three are such an influence on most of the Church in America ... so which came first the chicken or the egg?

    Smaller publishers also present at the conventions and if CMAA did want a table to sell merchandise and promote chant that would be possible as well ...

    NPM and CMAA simply tend to have different "emphases" ... but I'm not convinced that they are necessarily opposed to one another as some believe ...
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    IMHO
    NPM=all things for all people
    CMAA=let's get it done right the first time.
    That said, I believe CMAA's greatest selling point is colloquium. 2nd, open source, gratis reference and repertoire. From there on, the board needs to figure out where and how to branch out. A major concern might be the complete retooling of the SACRED MUSIC periodical. Unlike NPM's "Pastoral Music" or St. John's "Liturgy" it doesn't dabble or pose as a music resource and have whole issues that say virtually nothing. But SM might need to evolve into more balance with praxis and "how to" articles (ala Mary Jane Ballou's) the sometimes intensely didactic musicological treatises.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Having it actually published and sent out to members on time might help also.
    Thanked by 1TheUbiquitous
  • Adam,

    No - the "three men I admired the most" is what I had in mind, in my vain attempt at humor on a musical combox.

    Another way to divide the groups would be this:

    NPM is the clearinghouse for all music, used in American Catholic parishes, which is still under copyright.

    CMAA is the clearinghouse for music no longer or not yet under copyright.

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    the "three men I admired the most"

    Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and The Big Bopper?

    CMAA is the clearinghouse for music no longer or not yet under copyright.


    Not accurate. While a lot of the stuff around here is old enough to be in my grandfather's public domain, not all of it is. And writers of new music 'round these parts have a wide variety of feelings concerning copyright.

    You are dancing around the issue:

    NPM represents a particular paradigm (or cluster of paradigms) of Catholic church music, and CMAA represents a different one (or cluster of ones). One could use words loaded and misunderstood words like "traditional" or "contemporary," or inaccurate generalizations like "chant vs. folk songs," but those are sketchy.

    NPM's ethos is something along the lines of "Musical, Liturgical, and Pastoral."
    CMAA's is more like "Sacred, Beautiful, Universal."

    Goodness gracious, read what each organization says about itself and you'll figure it out.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Both promote sacred music, as found in the definitions of tra le Sollecitudini:

    NPM promotes religious music.
    CMAA promotes liturgical music.

    That is the difference.
  • Contributing over 400 posts does not mean that I still don't have questions, MHI. I think your post is vey condescending, but thanks for the reply.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW MHI
  • Agreed with Ben. The distinction is important, and clarifying.

    If I had to choose one organization, I'd go with CMAA. I find them to be very sympatico with the authentic documents.

    If I had the time and money to explore and go on 12+ vacations and conferences a year, I'd go to the NPM convention and have a first-hand look. I don't feel the need to do that, but I'm not opposed to the idea.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Really! Who has the money to go to all those conventions? Even those who could afford to attend everything probably wouldn't.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    I should keep in mind when reading questions on the forum that a lot of people find their way to the forum through an internet search, so they may not have heard much of CMAA before posting here.

    We do have some materials on the main site to express the philosophy that guides CMAA: it starts with the little essay on the home page which states, "The CMAA’s purpose is the advancement of musica sacra in keeping with the norms established by competent ecclesiastical authority."

    There's a little booklet on Frequently Asked Questions about Sacred Music, which sets forth our goals. Most of them relate to the reform of sacred music as launched in 1903 by Pope St. Pius X in Tra le sollecitudini: to revive chant from its neglected state in the post-Reformation period, to spread it as the normative music of the Roman rite, to encourage the fully sung Mass as a goal to be implemented in parishes: that is, with the sung Mass ordinary and sung propers; to encourage polyphonic music rooted in the chant tradition; and throughout, to work toward these goals in a gradual manner.
    Thanked by 2Chrism MHI
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Musicteacher56:

    This is the mission statement of the National Association of Pastoral Musicians, posted on its website:
    NPM Mission Statement
    The National Association of Pastoral Musicians fosters the art of musical liturgy. The members of NPM serve the Catholic Church in the United States as musicians, clergy, liturgists, and other leaders of prayer.

    As you can see, it differs considerably from what Mr. Yanke wrote above. In fact, I'm having a hard time seeing any difference between "liturgical music" and "musical liturgy."

    IMO, your question touched a raw nerve.

    I, for one, hope that you continue to ask your questions and to do more than simply "lurk" at this Forum.
    Thanked by 2chonak Chrism
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    This has indeed stuck a nerve in me as well.

    In my defense, NPM's mission statement says nothing not covered by my above description. It is more than possible to have a musical liturgy without liturgical music, unfortunately. Have you read the part in Tra Le to which I am referring?

    Musical liturgy in keeping with the mind of the church, spoken through her musical traditions and documents is what is missing from the picture of NPM.

    Also, another thing that is sad but true: everything approved by a bishop for liturgical use is not necessarily so. I cite as two prominent examples, one from each publisher: "Lean on me" as found in an OCP "hymnal" and "I am special," from GIA.

    Now, supposedly, both of those pieces were approved, eacg by their respective ordinaries in Chicago and Portland. Now: can anyone honestly say that those are suitable for the liturgy? Can ANYONE honestly say they qualify as a liturgical chant?

    We must accept that approval is (sadly) not the only qualification for appropriate liturgical music.

    Now, if we are willing to accept this concept, what else sold by these publishers is also not suitable for the liturgy? I'm sure if there is one in the warehouse, it's not alone.

    From there, we must ask: what is suitable, other than the music given to us by the church (chant, polyphony, organ)?

    That is the problem with NPM. There is not a sizable focus on this kind of music, that is the principal music of the liturgy.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    As others have said, it's incredibly difficult o ascertain the tone of writing on the Internet. One just can't see facial expressions, body language, nor hear inflections, etc. What some read as condescending, I found to be attempts at humor. It's an unfortunate disadvantage of this medium. I hope you continue to comment and post.

    As to the topic at hand, I personally would go for CMAA, but NPM can be good too, especially if you already have a solid foundation in chant and traditional hymnody.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 890
    I happen to belong to both. NPM is certainly more widespread and well known. Around these parts CMAA is almost unheard of. Still, I am fortunate in that my parish pays the NPM dues while I choose to pay the CMAA dues out of pocket. I could also choose to belong to AGO, MENC, ACDA etc. but where to draw the line. All of these organizations can be useful but one must draw the line somewhere. I've attended many NPM conferences and Ben's assessment in not inaccurate. No one's saying that Religious Music is bad, but rather misplaced when it is substituted for the liturgical music proper to the Mass--something we are all guilty of to some extent I suspect.

    I'm not saying that I didn't get anything out of the NPM conferences, but I am saying that I wasn't getting enough and that's when I found CMAA. Still, as a matter of professionalism I remain active with NPM on the local level.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Ben, I'm certainly no apologist for NPM, but I find your attempt to discredit that organization by twisting the clear meaning of its mission statement more than strange. Just let the statement speak for itself.

    And then trying to further besmirch NPM by implying that it had something to do with items OCP and GIA published? And then denigrating the Archbishops of Portland and Chicago? (In the case of "I Am Special," I don't THINK it's ever appeared in a hymnal published by GIA, and so the Archbishop of Chicago would NOT have been asked to give a permission to publish.)
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Join both, learn from both. There is no war. The course of history is clear in any case. The sung liturgy wants to be itself and not something else. That is the theme of CMAA, and plenty within NPM fully agree.
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    Jeffrey,

    I have great respect for you and your philosophy (initially based on words you have spoken in the past) and my respect for you has only deepened now. I agree--there is no war. Liturgical musicianship should not be divisive.
  • I have been to the CMAA colloquium (as, I suspect, have many who post and lurk hereabouts.) My pastor sent me, since it was his goal -- in his own expression -- to "put the parish through detox" . He wanted me to learn, but also to recharge my batteries, as it were, with people who had the knowledge to help. I found the conference worth every penny.

    I have attended workshops of the NPM, but never the national convention. My impression was not positive.

    I have spoken with people who come back from such (NPM) conferences. Those who approve of their work too often seem like those who have come from re-programming conferences: they spout the same wonderful, seemingly meaningless gibber.

    Let's look at the statement Fr. Krisman brings to the discussion.

    The National Association of Pastoral Musicians fosters the art of musical liturgy. The members of NPM serve the Catholic Church in the United States as musicians, clergy, liturgists, and other leaders of prayer

    It says that it "fosters" the "art" of "musical liturgy". "Fosters" isn't a problem, although it seems quite understated. "Art" - perhaps in the sense of "ars celebrandi"-- means to imply something created with great care. If the stuff the NPM promotes is "art" in that sense, the word has been misdefined until NPM used it. "Musical liturgy" doesn't mean "liturgy using what the Church prescribes", at least in the hands of the NPM. For starters, "liturgy" is taken to mean "the work of the people", in the proletarian or democratic sense.

    Here's the other part.

    as musicians, clergy, liturgists, and other leaders of prayer.

    Musicians aren't leaders of prayer.
    Liturgists aren't leaders of prayer.
    "Other" requires these two to be counted as - or treated as -- leaders of prayer.

    I had the chance recently to read a book called Death of a Liturgist. It describes the kind of liturgist the NPM supports. We're not talking Monsignor Guardini!




  • Going back to Ben's statement, he mentioned the difference between religious music and liturgical music.
    It's an important difference, and reading Tra le sollicitudini is essential if one wishes to understand this difference.

    Regarding NPM, which serves to market a great deal of religious music:
    Religious music is more viable with a commercial model.
    Liturgical music is less viable with a commercial model.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I agree--there is no war. Liturgical musicianship should not be divisive.

    As much as I think this should be the case, it is not. I may take some guns over this one, but it must be expressed and not just swept under the rug. Please understand that this is more a generalization and has nothing to do with CMAA vrs NPM, but is simply my own personal observations in my decades long career in Church music.

    I would correct this statement to read "there should be no war." Truth is however, Jesus warned us that we are going to be dealing with wolves in sheep clothing. It's part of the spiritual battle to which we are engaged. We are the church militant, and that, my dear brothers and sisters means GET ARMED and ready for the "struggle, not against flesh and blood but principalities and powers in high places." You cannot ignore it, and you cannot avoid it. It's why we put on the armor of God. From Ephesians:

    "6 11 Put you on the armour of God, that you may be able to stand against the deceits of the devil. induite vos arma Dei ut possitis stare adversus insidias diaboli
    6 12 For our wrestling is not against flesh and blood; but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places. quia non est nobis conluctatio adversus carnem et sanguinem sed adversus principes et potestates adversus mundi rectores tenebrarum harum contra spiritalia nequitiae in caelestibus
    6 13 Therefore, take unto you the armour of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day and to stand in all things perfect. propterea accipite armaturam Dei ut possitis resistere in die malo et omnibus perfectis stare
    6 14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth and having on the breastplate of justice: state ergo succincti lumbos vestros in veritate et induti loricam iustitiae
    6 15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace. et calciati pedes in praeparatione evangelii pacis
    6 16 In all things taking the shield of faith, wherewith you may be able to extinguish all the fiery darts of the most wicked one. in omnibus sumentes scutum fidei in quo possitis omnia tela nequissimi ignea extinguere
    6 17 And take unto you the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit (which is the word of God). et galeam salutis adsumite et gladium Spiritus quod est verbum Dei
    6 18 By all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the spirit: and in the same watching with all instance and supplication for all the saints: per omnem orationem et obsecrationem orantes omni tempore in Spiritu et in ipso vigilantes in omni instantia et obsecratione pro omnibus sanctis

    I believe I am one who is able to be accommodating (within acceptable norms) when it comes to excersizing my role as a "liturgical musician", and I do my best to provide what is asked and/or demanded of me, more often than not, music that I would never in my 'right' mind program for a liturgy. (I play a mean guitar, the piano, and can play the bass guitar too.) Our parish recently purchased Gather III (against my personal preference), and I have played it all with excellent form, each and every week.

    As open-minded and embracing of all styles of music (also against the Church's and my own preference), I am always obedient to my superiors in every iota. I never once question their preferences or requests. I have always 'delivered' so to speak. But that is never enough. It always comes down to your beliefs and your philosophy.

    It is very obvious that those who hold to the contemporary form of 'liturgical music' tend to be, IMO, narrow-minded in that they are not large enough to accommodate the more traditional scope of sacred music, which happens to be the authentic music put forth by the Church herself. The prejudicial treatment that I have and continue to receive from left leaners is nothing but downright cruel, disrespectful, manipulative, coercive, unprofessional, unjust, and people constantly work to marginalize any efforts I make toward what is called 'traditional'. This includes clergy and layman alike. Of course this is not a simple black and white issue as there are all kinds of people who run the entire spectrum from left to right leaning, and I would wager that no two people inhabit the same space in their preferential leaning.

    Said very bluntly, my experience over the course of my entire career has, making a generalization here, been this: most right leaning musicians who I have worked with (and that usually includes a solid theological praxis) tend to have little difficulty being accommodating toward the left leaning sort. It is not reciprocal with those who stand left of center, however, (and that usually includes both a questionable theological and musical praxis).
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    (post too long to fit in one space)

    So, while we would all like to say we are all working together, side by side, arm in arm, we can't. I leave you with more difficult words from the Lord himself taken from the Gospel of Matthew, which very much applies to those working in the vineyard of the Lord, including musicians:

    10 6 But go ye rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. sed potius ite ad oves quae perierunt domus Israhel
    10 7 And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. euntes autem praedicate dicentes quia adpropinquavit regnum caelorum
    10 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give. infirmos curate mortuos suscitate leprosos mundate daemones eicite gratis accepistis gratis date
    10 9 Do not possess gold, nor silver, nor money in your purses: nolite possidere aurum neque argentum neque pecuniam in zonis vestris
    10 10 Nor scrip for your journey, nor two coats, nor shoes, nor a staff; for the workman is worthy of his meat. non peram in via neque duas tunicas neque calciamenta neque virgam dignus enim est operarius cibo suo
    10 11 And into whatsoever city or town you shall enter, inquire who in it is worthy, and there abide till you go thence. in quamcumque civitatem aut castellum intraveritis interrogate quis in ea dignus sit et ibi manete donec exeatis
    10 12 And when you come into the house, salute it, saying: Peace be to this house. intrantes autem in domum salutate eam
    10 13 And if that house be worthy, your peace shall come upon it; but if it be not worthy, your peace shall return to you. et siquidem fuerit domus digna veniat pax vestra super eam si autem non fuerit digna pax vestra ad vos revertatur
    10 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. et quicumque non receperit vos neque audierit sermones vestros exeuntes foras de domo vel de civitate excutite pulverem de pedibus vestris
    10 15 Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. amen dico vobis tolerabilius erit terrae Sodomorum et Gomorraeorum in die iudicii quam illi civitati
    10 16 Behold I send you as sheep in the midst of wolves. Be ye therefore wise as serpents and simple as doves. ecce ego mitto vos sicut oves in medio luporum estote ergo prudentes sicut serpentes et simplices sicut columbae
    10 17 But beware of men. For they will deliver you up in councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues. cavete autem ab hominibus tradent enim vos in conciliis et in synagogis suis flagellabunt vos
    10 18 And you shall be brought before governors, and before kings for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles: et ad praesides et ad reges ducemini propter me in testimonium illis et gentibus
    10 19 But when they shall deliver you up, take no thought how or what to speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what to speak: cum autem tradent vos nolite cogitare quomodo aut quid loquamini dabitur enim vobis in illa hora quid loquamini
    10 20 For it is not you that speak, but the spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. non enim vos estis qui loquimini sed Spiritus Patris vestri qui loquitur in vobis
    10 21 The brother also shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the son; and the children shall rise up against their parents, and shall put them to death. tradet autem frater fratrem in mortem et pater filium et insurgent filii in parentes et morte eos adficient
    10 22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name's sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved. et eritis odio omnibus propter nomen meum qui autem perseveraverit in finem hic salvus erit
    10 23 And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come. cum autem persequentur vos in civitate ista fugite in aliam amen enim dico vobis non consummabitis civitates Israhel donec veniat Filius hominis
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    we must ask: what is suitable, other than the music given to us by the church (chant, polyphony, organ)?

    Or to bypass the "style" question (often a red herring anyway), which organization encourages 'singing the Mass' rather than 'singing AT the Mass'?

    That difference is significant.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Jenny
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    When commenting on that other organization, would users please indicate how much actual experience they have had with it? Folks like me who have had minimal contact with NPM (one chant workshop, and one local workshop, both long ago) really aren't in a position to discuss the group as knowledgeably as people who have read its materials or attended its programs in recent years.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    I have been to 2 CMAA colloquiums, and 2 (or 3?) NPM conventions (The most recent being the last one in Detroit. So, not all that long ago.) I think that the plenary speakers for NPM give good insight into the organization. (If not, then perhaps NPM ought to be a little more careful in who they select as the speaker to thousands of people, no?) If my memory serves me correctly, it is not uncommon to find their speeches including barbs directed against any form of "traditional" liturgy - latin, chant, the EF, ad orientem*, as well as extreme emphasis on WE are the body of Christ, and even some borderline heretical statements. (Sorry, none come to mind at the moment as it's been a couple years and I have to run now, but I do know that I have left basically every plenary session extremely angry about something or other, lol.)

    *Not that this is so different from the barbs of CMAA speakers against most "contemporary" music for example, but NPM seems to me to claim to be "all things" for all Catholic church music (as in, welcoming all expressions of music), and CMAA makes no such claims.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    I was a part of NPM for some 15 years. I attended local events in the dioceses that I was working in and went to three National conventions. I assisted in sponsoring a large workshop for NPM in a diocese I was working in at the time. When I was starting in this line of work, NPM was the only known "quantity." We were told that it was the only organization for Catholic musicians. At one time ( and maybe still) there was a working relationship with the AGO (American Guild of Organists).

    But in the early 1990s I became very anxious over the way NPM portrayed degreed musicians versus non-degreed. I think even they knew there was a problem as there was an attempt to create a group called DMMD (director of music ministries). But there was a clear attempt to make everything a "smorgasbord" and training and interest was just part of the choice. And in all honesty, some speeches I heard in the 1990's at the National conventions left me very concerned about the orthodoxy of what I was hearing. And in fairness, I became familiar with the writings of a certain cardinal who went on to be B16.

    In defense of NPM, I have some wonderful friends who remain a part of the group. The National convention was held in Louisville last year and there were some good programming offerings. But I remain convinced that NPM attempts to be "all things to all people" and that is impossible. And the relationship between NPM and the big publishers is nothing short of buying and selling in the courtyard of the temple.

    I have been told that its membership is dwindling but that is very anecdotal. There is a chapter in my diocese, but I see very little programming and I do not attend. Perhaps in the words of a dear friend who is still active but wanders through here occasionally that "NPM gave us a hook to hang on for the common purpose of music in the liturgy in the post-V2 years. But now we have grown up a little and can see further horizons that invite us to move beyond our youth."

    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    (I believe there was even a thread on here in the past couple years discussing the awful theology of the text of one of the NPM speakers.)
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    NPM-20 years, 1979-2000 most nationals, most western regionals including as a presenter at one.
    CMAA-7 years 2006-; 5 colloquia, beginning chant intensive (SD); advanced chant (NOLA)

    Apples to oranges comparison. As JT says, they both can prove healthy in measure.
    However, tedium entered the equation quite early at NPM events, and as I indicated above, the magazine is an outright embarrassment of poverty of thought and use. Wonderment, growth and an appreciation for authentic worship increases with each colloquium at CMAA. But its organizational status seems always in flux. OTOH, outside of appropriate reimbursement for staging CMAA events of the magnitude of colloquium, the self-funded, grass roots sacrifice of every member is truly a noble standard that NPM cannot claim, as there is a "class structure" implicit or explicit built into their semi-commercial nature.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    as there is a "class structure" implicit or explicit built into their semi-commercial nature


    I've felt that way too.

    Don't know if it's just me or "them" (and by "them" I think I mean not NPM specifically, but the "Musical-liturgical-industrial complex" of which they are a part).

    I used to show up at mainstream/"progressive" places AGREEING WITH THEM and felt like a customer at best, and never a friend or colleague.

    I showed up at MusicaSacra DISAGREEING WITH THEM and felt immediately like a friend and brother.

    (I'm sure this has much to do with my change of opinion about a range of liturgical and musical issues, BTW.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    There is an "attitude problem" within NPM but it is usually at the INDIVIDUAL level.

    There should not be a "war" and I don't think that NPM wants one - but clearly there are individual members who are "radicalized."

    I sat on one of those busses last year in Pittsburgh - you know, when there's an evening concert at the Cathedral across town and the convention center is 12 miles away, they get those charter busses that you can ride for free to the concert and back. And a lot of times you get on the bus by yourself and don't really know the people sitting around you. Well I began talking to a younger woman sitting behind me. We started sharing about where we were from and all of that sort of thing. She asked me where I worked, what kind of parish, etc. And the whole time, we are also laughing as we talk, pointing out things out the window of the bus and saying "look at that," and just kind of having a good time and being real friendly. Well I told her "I have two jobs; one for a parish and the other for a religious community. Both are great jobs, but a bit different. The religious community is what you might expect it to be, and the music is sort of very middle of the road, some traditional hymnody and some more contemporary songs. We use OCP. Now the parish is also a lot of fun, and we get to do a much higher level of music there. So that's very satisfying as well."

    And she said "What do you mean by a higher level of music?" I said "well, we really only do hymnody there, and we have a choir that can actually do chant and polyphony. Lots of great choral music." She said "do you do that every week, and in latin?" I said "Oh yes! It's so much fun!" She replied "eww." And - that was that. The conversation ended, the laughing stopped, and she went out of her way to turn the other way and begin conversation with someone on the other side of her. For the reaction that I got from her, you'd have thought that I had told her that my sexual preference was for children.

    Anyhow, I hesitated to even share that story, because that is clearly not EVERYONE that I meet there. In fact, I've met more than several very orthodox people and great musicians there. But clearly there is also that element.

    The plenum speakers - well I don't know who picks those. They usually do have to get some little comment in here or there, but overall they tend to be pretty decent if you ignore some of those comments. There has been some discussion that I'm aware of within NPM about the plenum speakers and "sticking to the facts" with less margainalizing editorializing going on.

    We shall see.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I haven't belonged to NPM in several years. The parish paid for the membership. One day, the pastor said he thought we had grown beyond what NPM had to offer, and did I really want or need that membership. I said no.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    My pastor sent me, since it was his goal -- in his own expression -- to "put the parish through detox"

    Bless him! We need more of those.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Earl_Grey
  • Jeffrey,

    Indeed! I'm not in that diocese anymore, but I still have fond memories of working with this priest.

    He's now in a new parish.

    May God bless him.

  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Or to bypass the "style" question (often a red herring anyway), which organization encourages 'singing the Mass' rather than 'singing AT the Mass'?

    That difference is significant.


    Indeed. That's a whole other issue I didn't even touch, but I'm glad you mentioned it.
    Thanked by 1Hilary Cesare
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    http://paulfford.com/roman-missal/
    NPM Louisville Keynote SING THE MASS (July 20, 2011)



  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Yep: some of the good guys are working on that side of the street too. When I took an NLM chant workshop, the instructors were Prof. William Tortolano and Fr Columba Kelly.

  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Having been to 6 NPM conventions (this year will be my first year to miss it since 2007), I have to say the Paul Ford plenum address in Louisville was the best moment of all of those conventions. It was a shocking and wonderful talk that left me with a smile on my face for the rest of the week. The image of Dr. Ford jumping around on stage holding The Simple English Propers and shouting about Jeff Ostrowski will be something forever ingrained in my memory. Then he said the magical word: "FREE" and people began talking all around me - there was free music available on the internet?

    Sadly not much ever came of it and most folks just went off to go buy music from the publishers at their booths set up next door.

    I would go to the Chant group meeting each year and more than once recommended a "showcase" of the free music available on the internet held at the same time as the "b-level" music publisher showcases. I wrote emails to the NPM suggesting this - which would cost them nothing. Nothing ever came of it.

    If one took a musician who knew nothing about the world and sent them to both the Convention and the Colloquium and asked how they should run their programs, the musician would be very confused... At one event he/she was encouraged to buy lots of new stuff. At one event he/she was told how to get everything they ever needed for free.
    Thanked by 1rich_enough
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I'm not disputing that parts of NPM are focused on that. However, as a whole, it is not a visible goal, as Matthew said.

    Do they have some good spots within their organization? Yes! This talk was an example of that. But overall, are they fighting for the musical mind of the church? No way.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    As an experiment, next time we could take freely available music there and offer it for sale at a special conference price, comparable to commercial publications. Maybe it'll get some attention that way.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    That.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I would go to the Chant group meeting each year and more than once recommend a "showcase" of the free music available on the internet held at the same time as the "b-level" music publisher showcases. I wrote emails to the NPM suggesting this - which would cost them nothing. Nothing ever came of it.


    I'm pretty sure this (or a variation on it) has come up before, but I wonder if some CMAA members might be willing or able to underwrite purchasing a booth at NPM to showcase all the free resources most of us use? Make it look like we're selling something (maybe even have a couple of laser printers and a few boxes of office paper there) and then give it out for free.

    [edit: chonak beat me to it!]
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I'm pretty sure this (or a variation on it) has come up before, but I wonder if some CMAA members might be willing or able to underwrite purchasing a booth at NPM to showcase all the free resources most of us use? Make it look like we're selling something (maybe even have a couple of laser printers and a few boxes of office paper there) and then give it out for free.


    A conspiracy of Truth, Beauty and Goodness? Muahaha. I like it.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I've offered to donate to such a venture before and the offer stands.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    I'm suggesting *not* giving it out for free; it would help cover the cost of the booth.