Sancti venite, Christi corpus sumite
  • Does anyone know whether there is chant for the hymn, Sancti venite, Christi corpus sumite, which is found in the Bangor Antiphoner? There are some recordings of it by some early music groups, but I did not know if their versions came from the Bangor Antiphoner or if they composed the music themselves.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,804
    From the information below it seems to be quite a rare hymn,

    http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/AnteMissam/SanctiVenite.html

    It would be worth seeing if the Bangor Antiphoner has information about the melody, the meter is unusual, and I cannot think of melody that uses that meter...

    It would be interesting to hear the melody used on the recordings to see if it is used with a different hymn.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Are you familiar with the English translation by John Mason Neale, "Draw night and take the Body of the Lord..."?

    It can be found in a number of Anglican hymnals, including The Hymnal 1982, where it is set to a beautiful tune by Orlando Gibbons (#328)
  • Actually, I love the Neale translation and just programmed it as the communion hymn this past weekend. I noticed for the first time that it was a translation from the Latin. We sang it out of Worship III which as I am sure you know, pairs it with Coena Domini by Arthur Sullivan

    As far as the recording, it seems to have been done by Capella Antiqua München:
    http://www.amazon.com/Sancti-venite-Christi-corpus-Thursday/dp/B0013AUH1I
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I've been on a rabbit trail this morning looking for the chant tune for Sancti Venite.

    Though the recording above posted by @cantorconvert is the closest I've come to a chant tune, I thought it worth adding here that the Brebeuf Hymnal gives 10 tunes plus more tunes for different translations.

    Of the ten for Sancti Venite, the first three are especially composed for the Brebeuf Hymnal. The other tunes are adapted from 7.7.7.7 tunes, having the first and fourth syllables of the first and third line of each stanza take up two beats of the 7.7.7.7 tune.

    The meter is unusual. Hymnary.org only gives 2 such tunes.

    Update: the person who requested this just sent this link:
    “Christ Ist Erstanden” (In Latin!) - which is the tenth tune from the Brebeuf Hymnal.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 437
    I have just taken a closer look at this hymn and find it most striking...

    It is the only hymn that I know of (of any antiquity) that seems to have been expressly written to be sung for the reception of Holy Communion during Mass.

    There are of course many hymns to the Blessed Sacrament of a devotional nature, but I can't think of any others that have such a strong link to the actual reception of Holy Communion.

    I wonder why Solesmes did not include this in any of its publications...

    Does anyone know of any other comparable Latin-texted hymns of antiquity that seem to have been written expressly for the reception of Holy Communion?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,475
    My best guess is that the selected eucharistic chants are not really designed to encourage reception at the high Mass, something discouraged both in the monastery (and practiced only exceptionally to this day in much of the Solesmes congregation) and in secular churches of the time. There’s nothing wrong with using the eucharistic chants that are in these publications, but if you need “filler”, well, the proper extended with psalm verses is more suitable.

    Maybe someone at Solesmes left notes or a draft of Cantus Varii (1927) and then Cantus Selecti (a very, very big book with perhaps too many choices). And who knows (OK, Dom Guilmard might!) what Dom Mocquereau left with respect to the origins of the Liber Usualis.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 437
    It seems the hymn was actually intended for the priests’ communion - ‘Quando communicant sacerdotes’. That is how it is labelled in the 7th-century Bangor Antiphonary.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 437
    I repeat: what seems utterly remarkable to me about this is its antiquity and seeming intended use as a hymn for the communion rite.

    I was well aware of Gustate et videte as the most ancient of all the communion antiphons… but the idea of a hymn written not for Eucharistic devotion but Eucharistic reception seems to me to be without precedent or successor in the Western Rites.

    If I’ve missed a related repertory here I’d be grateful if members might point me towards it.

    I also wonder whether any equivalent offertory hymns of such antiquity exist.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,499
    Palestrina - It was never the desire of the "Celtic" church to separate itself from Rome, distinctive features arose because of the difficulty of maintaining good contact while successive waves of pagans crashed across Western Europe. With Charlemagne's policy of restoring unity to liturgical practice where his writ ran, not much distinctive material was of interest.
    It might be worth running you eye over Fr Tom O'Loughlin's extensive output.
    https://nottingham.academia.edu/ThomasOLoughlin/CurriculumVitae
  • @Palestrina There is a certain theory of the celtic rite being closely related with the Gallican Rite. There is an interesting book which describes a theory of St. Patrick being a nephew of St. Martin of Tours and learning things from His Monastery. Perhaps it comes from that... I havent studied enough to be able to make a definite statement but it could be a lead.
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 437
    Thanks, everyone.

    The inevitable question will arise as to what the point of my searching for ancient hymns of this kind really is…

    There are so many churches around the world using the 1962 Missal that simply don’t have the musicians to sustain the full and correct rendition of the propers of the Graduale. In those situations, I have no doubt that psalm tones (and recto tono) renditions of the propers prevail. But what then? It would seem marvellous to me that there is a possibility of teaching the entire congregations limited repertoire of things that could cover the moments when other singing is possible - and to do so with sound, historically rooted, liturgically fitting and theologically correct texts would both meet a need and recognise the ‘on the ground’ reality on some places.
    Thanked by 1monasteryliturgist
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 437
    Expanding on my thinking above slightly…

    Making the propers optional has inevitably led to their wholesale destruction as a liturgical repertoire.

    Rather than replacing them, might a pathway forward be to create what amounts to an ‘expanded ordinary’? That is, a limited range of works (taken from ancient sources), that can follow the propers and can be easily taken up by the congregation.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,499
    That was the objective of the Graduale Simplex, I think, while sticking to the monastic/curial use of the psalter.
    And I know little of the Germanic use of hymns at Mass, but that is a post-Reformation model to look at.
    It may well be that there were offertory hymns used in the far distant period when the people brought their gifts for distribution after Mass.
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 437
    My objective, as distinct from the Graduale Simplex, is not to replace/streamline/simplify/reduce the propers (these should always be sung, whether from the Graduale or to a simple psalm tone) but to ensure that there is a repertoire (of genuine historical standing and integrity) that could sit alongside the propers after these had been sung by a cantor.

    Imagine Sung Mass with propers sung by a cantor, the ordinary alternating between cantor and congregation, and a few additional pieces for use at the Offertory and Communion… and thus ensuring that Sung Mass would always be within the reach of small communities.
  • smt
    Posts: 73
    I find the observation by @Palestrina very interesting!

    I transcribed the version sung by Capella Antiqua in modern notation btw. I wonder where the "original melody" given at Gregorio comes from. The Bangor Antiphonar does not give a melody as far as I remember. Does anybody know the transcriber "Ryan Patrick Murphy"?
  • Does anybody know the transcriber "Ryan Patrick Murphy"?


    I do! I can ask him for his source for the Sancti Venite, if you like (though given that the score on Gregobase says "original melody", I'm guessing it's actually his own). The church choir I've sung for since childhood has a setting for SATB, but I'd never seen a chant version either until this one; if the Bangor Antiphonary has only text, I'm guessing there's no melody from that era anywhere to be found.
    Thanked by 2smt Verbum_Gloriae
  • given that the score on Gregobase says "original melody", I'm guessing it's actually his own
    Having asked, yes, the melody is Ryan's; since he wanted to sing it and didn't have a melody, he took the practical way and wrote his own, and a very nice one at that!
  • smt
    Posts: 73
    Thank you very much for asking Ryan. And many thanks to him for the melody! "Original melody" is a bit ambigious to my ears, but now I see how it is meant :-)