Maybe I need to rethink things...

  • A move and a new parish has had me questioning some of the concepts that I have long held about what is good church music.

    I am a traditionalist and have never felt comfortable with even the concept of a "contemporary" mass; too often there seems to be a conflict between liturgy and music - they seem to inhabit very different worlds with the music failing to support the liturgy but often serving instead as a sort of interlude while someone up the front does something.

    However the recent move has us living within a parish with a very strong Pacific Island presence. On two or three Sundays the principal Mass is a "contemporary" service with guitars; definitely not my thing at all… except…

    …it is absolutely stunningly wonderful.

    I have never heard any church of any denomination sing like this - no choir, just a few volunteers, and the rest is just folks singing their hearts out. It may not be quite what I would choose to sing, but you can't fault the commitment or the belief; "Alleluias" sound like "Alleluias" rather than the slightly embarrassed mumble that many of us will recognize.

    No it's not for every one, but I would love to catch some of that spirit in a bottle and send it around the world
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    If you get a chance, make a little video so we can get an idea of it too. Thanks.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    I would also love to see/ hear it!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Intentionality?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Nope, Mad Dan (I love that) has wandered into the rarified air of real enculturation as it developed in a colonial culture in synthesis and his particular ensemble exhibits excellence in a honed and(doubtless) humbled environment. When I still taught HS Choral, multiculturalism in repertoire was approaching a zenith; that was definitely in evidence at ACDA National Conventions which I attended with strict regularity more than NPM and before CMAA. There are, particularly in Tahiti and even Hawaii (The Rose Ensemble) pristine recordings of Christian sacred music, some of which is purely native and others obviously that had been grafted with European diatonic traits. Nonetheless, if you're looking for this in recordings it's not difficult to find the highest standards in both performance and in composition (in its genre.)
    The phenomenon of this, to me, is not unlike the dedication of local folks like our great bud Greg P, to dedicate themselves as individuals towards the refinement of the whole in Gregorian "garage scholas." Good on ye, Mad Dan.
  • Without intending the slightest insincerity, I think that is just fine for those people of that culture. I have heard many, many times, people of my culture sing Palestrina, Howells, Tallis and chant, Bach, Handel, Anglican chant and hymns with the same spirit. One should shy very far away from suggesting that some other culture's particular music is, sui generis, more heartfelt, authentically human, or spiritual than ours. Nor would I give the music you heard to my choir or congregation on the basis that it was inherently more spiritual than that of their own heritage. This is a very common error. It is just copying someone else and not being ourselves. I remember when, as a youth, I first heard the Missa Luba: I thought, 'goodness, we don't sound like that!'. No, we don't sound like that: we sound like us, which is just as good. You might have been similarly moved by the singing at some evangelical church, a black church, etc.,.... because you hadn't heard it before.

    No need to 're-think'.... just appreciate in context.
    Gavin said it: 'intentionality'.
    Thanked by 3chonak CHGiffen IanW
  • M. Jackson Osborn,

    Among great organ composers, one could pick Bach, Buxtehude or Widor. One wouldn't pick Virgil Fox or Elton John. This doesn't comment on the quality of the person, but on the stature of the composer as such, in a particular field.

    The Church has thee culture at some level. The Church has also taught us -and, quite frankly, common sense tells us, too - that not all music is created equal, and that that which we give to God should be our best; St. Patrick didn't advocate Mass in Gaelic, although I hear tell that it's a beautiful language. Beautiful it may be, but the universal language of the Church is Latin. Various rites of the Church are, legitmately, in other languages, which is all well and good -- and also utterly beside the point.

    I can't tell from what you wrote if you and I agree or completely disagree. Can you help?

  • CGZ -
    Probably some of both; but, probably more of the former than the latter.
    The 'universal language of the Church' is one which I love. I also think that it should be used in all inter-cultural situations (my views about pastiche masses are well known, if not well-agreed-with).
    At the same time, I am equally thankful that I (we) can worship in my (our) own language, which is equally beautiful, and which I love somewhat more.

    (We are, though, in 100% agreement about the performers whom you name above! As for the composers you name, I should never put Widor in the same sentence with Bach... but others might.... and you did.)
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Cgz,

    The universal language of the Latin Church is Latin. (There are Byzantine Catholics, Maronite Catholics, etc., which do not use Latin. These are churches proper, not simply rites.)

    That being said, I think there are many pieces in the Latin Church which sounds beautiful without translation, which is why I still desire that Latin be used in the West, and I am still to be convinced regarding the English translation of portions of the Mass, as well as the music composed these days attendant thereto. We should not, however, overstate our case.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Jackson, would you mind explaining the thrust of your first comment? As I read Mad Dan's notion of "Maybe I need to rethink things" he's just acknowledging a new encounter, which has sparked within him a need to re-examine his perspectives and understanding.
  • Imagine if these people were told that they could NOT sing, as they come from a culture that still sings.

    It would probably the same as our US people who are told that they HAVE to sing, coming from a new culture that does not sing but listens.

    It's really time to wave the white flag. There are many more important things for US Catholics to be told to do to participate in being Catholic - than standing up and singing. Priests see the first few pews, filled with people who WANT to be at Mass. Choir directors and organists up in the balcony in the see the true picture. The further people sit from the altar, the fewer hymnbooks are open.

    I have heard many, many times, people of my culture sing Palestrina, Howells, Tallis and chant, Bach, Handel, Anglican chant and hymns with the same spirit.


    The point here is that this discussion is about an entire congregation that is singing, not just people in a choir - there is no choir.

    I too, have heard SELECT people from my culture sing this music - but only in choirs.
  • bgeorge77
    Posts: 190
    Maybe just hand them the texts of the propers/ordinary (in English or Latin or whatever language they speak) and see what they come up with, melodically/harmonically. Or teach them a few Gregorian ordinaries, but then let them modify the melodies and harmonize as seems natural to them. Presto, inculturation.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,935
    I think there is too much emphasis on Latin, when trying to straighten out an off-the-wall music and liturgy program. Going off the deep end on Latin at the start, can be a recipe for failure. Fix the other problems first, then worry about Latin.
    Thanked by 3formeruser Gavin Ben
  • Melo -
    The thrust of my first comment?
    I did believe Mat Dan was very excited and at some level very favourably impressed with a first encounter with the cultural expressiveness of Pacific Islanders. I meant to affirm his appreciation of that encounter, while offering the seasoned observation that such encounters and their attendant emotional responses should not at all reflect negatively on the validity of our own culture and its music. As I intimated, I have often observed such encounters resulting in a negative reassessment of one's own culture and a (mis-)perceived need to change it to be more like the other one. There is much antipathy these days towards the European heritage in music and liturgy which is shared by, probably, most of us on this forum. One is constantly hearing (even from those of European heritage!) about how this and that is so 'Euro-centric' and would be of little interest in this or that part of the globe. I find this pell-mell abondonment of our own heritage to be un-called for, extremely perplexing - and, offensive. Perhaps I have made a mountain out of a mole hill; I hope not. I appreciate and share Dan's experience of another cultural expression; but, in appreciating it, I see no implied need to rethink my own - only to treasure it more.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Thanks, MJO, well clarified.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I had a similar experience to Mad Dan when I attended an Antiochian Orthodox mission in rural Michigan. They met in a tiny conference center (almost a shack), which they had transformed into a beautiful traditional church. (HINT: THE MOST HELPFUL COMPONENT WAS THAT THE ELECTRIC LIGHTS WERE VERY LOW!!) I was AMAZED at how the congregation sang with such vigor, volume, and emotion. Here was a small group of farmers, many uneducated, singing ancient chants in English, Greek, and what I assume was Arabic. The 20 or so of them outsang any Catholic congregation of thousands I've ever heard.

    When I moved to the Detroit area, I had to experience this again, so I attended a large Greek Orthodox church, assuming I would see more of the same. I was wrong. In the pews (!!!!) of this huge structure were people disconnected from the liturgy. Women attended to private devotions, while their husbands actually reclined in the pews, reading the local newspaper! The music was a sole chanter, who rattled off the chants in a monotone with a clear apathy in his tone. (I feel that many Orthodox chanters chant too quickly, but the effect is one of excitement and vigor, where this just had a "get it done with" quality.) What a disappointment that was!

    Intentionality. Nearly everyone at the Mission was a convert, most from the same parish as the convert pastor. They all wanted to be there and wanted the liturgy to be that way. I suspect it is the same with the Pacific Islander parish - they have sought out and created a community which reflects their culture and values. Most parishes, however, have congregations which are attending because of family history or geography. No one has any reason to be at this church rather than not spending the effort to be elsewhere.

    We might prefer the intentional parishes, but that isn't to denigrate the average parish. We just shouldn't be surprised when they don't share the same enthusiasm for music or ritual as parishes where EVERYONE attends out of enthusiasm for ritual or music.
  • Whether it's an intentional parish in the sense that it is commonly used I really don't know. I am inclined to think not in the sense that it might be used in larger city.

    This is certainly not a "Samoan parish" (whatever that may mean), just an ordinary suburban parish in an area of mixed background and income level.