What is the best book to use for Vernacular Propers?
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40
    Concerning the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite here

    Here is the point I would like to make:

    The Simple English Propers have no Gradual, Alleluia or any of the Sequences/Additional Antiphons
    The Graduale Parvum has no Offertory Antiphons
    The Lalemant Propers have everything... but they are far too simple
    The Old Complete English Propers has a very dodgy notation system, I believe is well out of date and has nothing in it for Holy Week

    I don't know if I am missing out a very obvious set of chants here... but I would appreciate is someone could find me an appropriate one that has about as much as the . It's particularly annoying for the Mass for the Dead, and we end up using the Latin ones, which isn't our aim. I would rather not jump about from book to book like we are at the moment, so any help would be much appreciated.

    I am thinking that maybe the Vatican II Hymnal is a good possibility, but I have never seen nor used it. I would be grateful if someone could let me know how good this book is.

    Also... is it permissible to use the Anglican-Use Gradual for the Ordinary Form?

    Many thanks!
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,001
    Yes to the AUG.
    Thanked by 2Jamie Chris Allen
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40
    Really?? Great! Maybe I'll just use that then! Thank you so much!

    Although, I would still like to know more about the Vatican II Hymnal if anyone knows about it!
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40
    Actually, I did not realise that the Anglican Use Gradual was so simple... In fact is does not differ much from the lalemant propers except from the fact that the translation is better and more traditional.

    So, I guess I'm still looking for a good book!
  • You need copies of:
    A) The Plainchant Gradual (Palmer and Burgess), originally published by the Anglican (now Catholic!) sisters at St Mary's Wantage, in England, and reprinted by kind permission by our very own CMAA

    B) The American Gradual (Bruce Ford), downloadable.

    Both of these are the Gregorian propers set, respectively, to Tudor and modern American English. Some balk at the Tudor English of the AUG or the Plainchant Gradual: if deemed necessary, it is usually a simple matter to modernise pronouns and no-longer-common verb forms.

    The Palmer-Burgess follows the old one year cycle, so it is sometimes (particularly during ordinary time) necessary to look up the proper in the Graduale Romanum, then track it down in the Plainchant Gradual. Unfortunately, this sometimes means paging through, because the PG has no index. (I am working on an index, but this work is going slowly, being squished between other projects.)

    The AUG, as noted above is really nice. But (even as a founding member of the ordinariate) I find it tiring week after week after week. But it is good for choirs who are taxed to learn more challenging propers on a weekly basis.

    I quite agree with you about the lack of graduals/or responsorial psalms and alleluya verses in many of the current books of propers, such as the SEP. What we, in my very strong opinion, need is a true Graduale in modern English that contains 1) Introit with ps vv., 2 choice of 'gradual' or responsorial psalm for all three years 3) Alleluyas with their verses, 4) Offertory antiphons with psalm vv., 5) Communion antiphons with psalm vv.

    Some who advocate for the propers seem to avoid the responsorial psalm as an option. This is self-defeating, not objective, and rather dated an attitude. A complete book of propers will contain the resp. ps. for all three years as a viable option. Relatively few parishes will avail themselves of the option for the traditional gradual. Nor is the resp. ps. a new-fangled nasty VII innovation! It is quite quite an ancient item. And no one should be ignorant of the fact that the 'gradual', itself, is what is left of a resp. ps.
    Thanked by 1Jamie
  • awilliamsawilliams
    Posts: 96
    Provided I don't speak much on the forum (I am more of a stalker than anything), but I have several "projects" that I work on privately and hope to one day--in the distant future--finish one of them. These projects are basically the result of some private work I may do for this Mass and that Vespers. Part of me wants to fill in the gaps to release a book one day. Who knows?

    That being said, I had started on an English Gradual similar to what you speak of. I hope to include the Introit (1v and Dox.), Gradual, Responsorial Psalm, Alleluia/Tract, Gospel Acclamation, Offertory, and Communion. I only planned on doing Sundays and Feasts days at this point. However, when I heard that Fr. Samuel Weber, O.S.B. is preparing to release his gradual soon I stopped working on my gradual to start up another one of my projects (The Liturgy of the Hours in Chant for Sundays and Solemnities).

    I am not sure which would be more appreciated at this point considering other releases.

    For my English Sunday Gradual I have been taking the Palmer-Burgess chants and using their English adaptations as a basis for adapting the propers to more modern language.

    I attached some examples. If someone had use of something like this for an event I am willing to work something up.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,119
    M. Jackson Osborn & others:

    Many hands make light work; why not put what you have so far here?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,353
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40

    If you did that, you would be the definite hero of the whole English-Chanting World!!! Please continue to work on this! Particularly on the Votive Masses, and Masses for the Dead!

    I will pray for you!
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40
    Can I make a few suggestions if you choose to go ahead with this?

    - Give options for both Latin and English Antiphons at Vespers, instead of just Latin
    - Use the normal Our Father, the one from the Missal, that sounds most like the Pater Noster
    - Use the common tone for the magnificat... unless you are using a different tone since the example is from advent.

    The benediction bit is a great idea, but maybe the put the option for the "You have given" and the prayer to be in Latin too... since most parishes do that bit in Latin.

    Since it's a graduale... you could also consider transferring some Mass Settings from the Graduale into English. Every english version of the Missa de Angelis that I have found has been awful! ICEL's credo III is good though. I have now resorted to writing my own version of the Missa de Angelis in English, if you want I can send it to you.

    I never thought I'd see a book with English Propers and Vespers in one book! Deo gratias! If you only do Sundays and Solemnities, make sure you transfer the Missa pro defunctis propers and ordinary... including the in paradisum (oh how long I have waited for that to appear) and other sung parts of the concluding rites etc. It wouldn't hurt to throw in a few votive Masses and the nuptial Mass too... I'm ranting sorry.

    Please give it a shot... you have no idea how many seminarians would be singing a "Te Deum" (Or a "Thou, O God", if you publish a version) if this book was published! As I said, I will pray!
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40
    M. Jackson,

    The American Gradual is great, but it only has Sundays and a few solemnities... no Masses for the Dead, nuptial Masses etc. Plus, I find that people generally find it easier reading gregorian notation rather than modern notation.
  • Jamie, you are right on both counts about The American Gradual. All the scholas and singers I have worked with have found it difficult, even cumbersome, to try to 'chant' with stemless noteheads! As for saints' days, requiems, etc.: you are also correct. Ford's work is lacking here. He will, though (he really will) prepare for you any propers that you need for any occasion, and will, even, put any of his work into square notes if you ask. Just e-mail him. He is very accomodating. You are aware, of course, that, normally, ferias do not have their own propers, but repeat the ones from the previous Sunday. This, naturally, does not apply to saints' days and solemnities.

    As for me, I prefer to work with The Plainchant Gradual. Sometimes I use the no-longer-common English as it is; at other times I think nothing of modernising pronouns and verb forms if I think these will be an encumbrance to a given congregation. Having them appreciate chant (which they normally do appreciate!) is much more important than glaring 'thees' and 'thous' in some instances.
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40
    Yes, I was aware that you use the Propers of the Previous Sunday for Ferias.

    I have never used the Plainchant Gradual... are the melodies similar to that of the Graduale Romanum? Has it got the full monty; the Introit, Gradual, Alleluia, Offertory and Communion? Does it have all the antiphons for votive masses, Holy Week, feasts and solemnities?

    If anyone here ever plans to make a decent Gradual, can I just say something that really annoys me; The might translate all the propers etc. But traditionally, a gradual contains versions of the Mass Ordinary. Just sayin'!

    Anyone here ever used the Vatican II Hymnal? That seems quite promising! It has the full order of the Mass in Latin and English, many Traditional Hymns, Settings of the Ordinary in both latin and english (although the Missa de Angelis in English is terrible and so unfamiliar!) and it has all the propers in Latin and English - and I think it's the full propers. It's more like a Missal than a hymnal. Has anyone used this book? Any criticisms? I know it's fairly new.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 633
    Although it's not complete, you might want to also look at the Lumen Christi Missal.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Somebody refresh my mind, no where near my office copy: Does Adam include in Lumen Christi versicles and settings for the gradual and alleluia?
    AWWilliams- your collection looks like a very promising graduation up from SEP for some choirs/scholas, thank you very much.
  • awilliamsawilliams
    Posts: 96

    Thank you for your encouragement. It is what I needed to keep going with the project.

    I would love to see your copy of Mass VIII when you finish it. I have been looking at some adaptation of Masses in the Graduale/Graduale Simplex. I was planning on including a few adapations of major Masses (I, VIII, IX, XI) as well as a few of the Masses in the simplex. I will definitely include the Mass for the Dead (I have an english version of the In Paradisum lying around here somewhere).

    As I get closer to finishing I plan on seeing if Jeff Ostrowski and Richard Rice will let me include a Mass or two from them.

    As for the Vespers half, I plan on doing English antiphons only to avoid clutter. Of course, any parish that may wish to us Latin antiphons can easily sing them with the tones I use in the book. The text will include a section in the back with the four-week psalter pointed to the tone and then the proper of seasons would just include antiphons. My psalm-tone system is designed so that regardless of the mode, the tone is already pointed. I am aiming for usability in average parishes while maintaining the melodic elements of the original chants. And yes, I already started on an english adaptation of the Te Deum.

    So, in short, my plan now is to produce a text that has:
    -A small collection of English Masses
    -A small collection of Latin Masses (as called for by the Council)
    -All proper chants w/ Responsorial Psalms and Gospel Acclamation for Sundays and Solemnities
    -All chants for Vespers I and II and Lauds of Sundays and Solemnites
    -An appendix with various hymns (Te Deum, Tantum Ergo, O Salutaris, Etc...)

    My long term plan includes the publication of two additional texts. The first will include simple adaptations of the Gradual and Alleluia (as seen in my example). The second will include organ accompaniment for the psalms tones and hymns of the liturgy of the hours. I don't think I have the musical ability to write accompaniments of the antiphons at this time. (Someone else may wish to down the road).

    As far as a timespan, I am shooting on making a PDF available with Advent and Christmas by the first of November of this year.

    Thank you for your prayers.
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40

    That is no bother, I'll let you see the Mass VIII when I'm done, and I'll pop in the Credo III in Square notation in with it! I've already started praying for you!

    To all,
    Can I ask, what do you think about using the Vatican II Hymnal as a Congregational Book? It seems like the ideal book for the congregation, though not so much for the choir. I think I'm going to order one for myself, it seems pretty ideal. Corpus Christi Watershed done a fantastic job with the St. Edward Campion Missal, so I have high expectation for the V-II Hymnal.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    FYI, the VII hymnal has no music for the propers, just English translations of the GR ones. The translations match SEP, for better or for worse.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 633
    Adam has all the cantor music on this website http://illuminarepublications.com/

    ...at least for those feasts that he's completed compositions for. He does have Responsorial Psalms rather than a gradual, but since that is normative for the OF these days...
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Thanks, Wendi, got to the office and referenced that AB has his tones for the modes on the final page of the missal.
    Thanked by 1Wendi
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40
    Can I just bump this thread and maybe speak out and say it's time for CMAA or CCWatershed to maybe publish a Liber Usualis in English for the Ordinary Form? The Liber Usualis is the most handy book ever for the EF, and if there was an OF version it would delight many clerics, seminarians and musicians alike.

    Just a suggestion, after awilliams showed me his planned work on a book with Sunday Vespers and all the propers.

    For those who don't know, the Old Liber Usualis had the Order of Mass, all the Antiphons for specific liturgical occassions (Reception of the Body to the Church, For Ordinations, Confirmations etc.), all Ordinaries of the Mass, Antiphons to the B.V.M., The Propers for each Sunday, Solemnities and Feastdays, also for Ritual Masses. Alongside the Proper of Time, it had the Antiphons and Chants needed for the Divine Office on Sundays and Solemnities, and even special offices, such as the Office for the Dead. If there was a book that did this for the Ordinary Form - there isn't even a version in Latin published yet for the ordinary form - it would certainly boost the availability of chant to many parishes and people, considering it's all in one book just about.

    It's simply a suggestion, and I'm sure it's not the first time someone has said it, but I think the Liber Usualis needs to make a bold return.
    Thanked by 1WiesOrganista
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,001
    I'm working on something similar. However instead of using antiphons for every Sunday I'm using the antiphons from the simple gradual. I really wasn't planning on doing anything with it except using it at my own parish with my humble Schola.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,518
    Jamie, the Edward Campion missal is an outstanding product. I have found the V-II Hymnal to be somewhat limited, and infuriatingly nonstandard. YMMV.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,331
    Do you mean a book in English with Gregorian chants in Latin? The Gregorian Missal from Solesmes meets that need already.

    Or do you mean that someone should offer a book with chant adaptations in English? Adam Bartlett is doing that with the Lumen Christi Gradual (soon?).
  • Jamie
    Posts: 40
    I await the release of the Lumen Christi Graduale soon. That will be interesting.

    I'm talking mainly about the OF, the Edward Campion Missal is simply amazing for the Extraordinary Form... but not so great for the Novus Ordo

    I will pray for you in your work, and if you ever complete your work, be sure to share it with us!

    God bless.
  • The American Gradual does contain a Mass for the Dead (with many but not all of the alternatives given in the Graduale Romanum. Perhaps it is not included in the downloadable version on the CMAA site.
    Thanked by 2Jamie Chris_McAvoy
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 809
    And the reason no one is mentioning By Flowing Waters is . . . ? Here is its contents:

    Suites of Proper Chants (Introit, Responsorial, Alleluia (or Tract), Offertory, Communion) for:

    2 Suites for Advent (“early” and “late”)

    Holy Family, Epiphany, Baptism
    Ash Wednesday and the 5 Sundays of Lent

    Palm/Passion Sunday
    Chrism Mass
    Holy Thursday/Good Friday/Easter Vigil and Easter Sunday

    2 Suites for Easter
    Trinity, Corpus Christi, Sacred Heart
    9 suites for Ordinary Time:
    Ordinary Time I (BFW 221–229) — praise of the God at work in Jesus’ ministry
    Ordinary Time II (BFW 230–238) — trust and hope in God
    Ordinary Time III (BFW 239–247) — petitioning God for assistance
    Ordinary Time IV (BFW 248–258) — thanksgiving to God, especially in God’s house
    Ordinary Time V(BFW 259–268) — for God’s justice
    Ordinary Time VI (BFW 269–274, as well as BFW 232–234 and 241–243) — God’s peace and loving kindness
    Ordinary Time VII (BFW 275–280, as well as BFW 250–253 and 262–264) — reverence and love for God
    Ordinary Time VIII (BFW 281–287, as well as BFW 645, 210–211, 413–414, and 123) — God is true to God’s name, “I will be with you”
    Ordinary Time IX (BFW 288–295, as well as BFW 133 and 140) — watchful joy for the Return of Christ

    Christ the King

    6 Suites of Commons
    Propers for All Feasts of the Lord and Solemnities of Saints
    Ritual, Various Needs, and Votive Masses
    Funeral Mass and Order of Funerals
    A Kyriale of 5 Ordinaries with alternatives
    Chants for the Order of the Mass
    Appendix of Other Useful Chants
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen eft94530
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 773
    Paul, you were working on a second edition of By Flowing Waters, I recall. What will be different in comparison to the first (1999) edition?
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • Heath
    Posts: 857
    +1 for By Flowing Waters! Beautifully done by Paul and a great transition into chant/propers (modern notation, concise melodies, less daunting number of propers).

    And I echo the question above . . . what will the second edition look like?
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 809
    Changes forthcoming in By Flowing Waters:

    Of the 680 chants in BFW the changes in Roman Missal III will only affect 555 through 626, pages 329 through 374, less than 9% of the total.

    The greatest changes will be in in 555 through 594, pages 329 through 342, less than 3% of the total; and I am thinking of just using the new ICEL versions of most of these, even though I think that some of the ICEL versions can be improved.

    No new edition of the book is planned at this time. I will be publishing all the revised pages for free downloading from the internet, as well as all the corrections, revisions, and additions.

    Watch these pages for the revisions and corrections.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Maybe the new part could be published to lulu, so those who want it in a hardbound print can have it? Feel free to contact me if you want a hand with it.
  • Jamie, in case you never found the answer to your question about The Plainsong Gradual (Palmer-Burgess-Shields), yes, the chants are the Liber Usualis chant melodies with Tudor-era English translations (or the Victorian-era idea of Tudor English).
    Volumes 1-2 have all the Sunday and major feasts propers including the Triduum (all five propers, and Introit has one verse and Gloria Patri), volumes 3-4 have Common of Saints, Votive Masses, and Proper of Saints. The only thing not in there is the Nuptual Mass. Both books (Parts I and II; Parts III and IV) can be downloaded from MusicaSacra's English propers page (where the downloads are labeled 1 and 2).
    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • A Sinner
    Posts: 8
    Well, I'm about a year late for the party, but I wanted to put my two cents in support of "By Flowing Waters". We use these almost exclusively at one of the Sunday masses at my parish. There wasn't a real "popular demand" for chant (many were hostile to it) and yet the congregation has been singing these loud and clear almost from day one. They are helped out by extemporized organ accompaniments.

    I also feel secure in that I'm singing from an official chant book of the Church (albeit in translation) using actual existing Gregorian Chant. Not to insult anyone's fine work, but it seems unlikely that an entire gradual of the work of one contemporary composer can satisfy the needs of a chanting parish.
    Thanked by 2Spriggo Paul F. Ford
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,895
    SEP is generally considered good.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,647
    If you genuinely sit down and sing both the SEP and the LCSG chants each week and pick the better chant, you'll likely find that 99% of the time you'll pick the LCSG.

    Each chant, each week, I sit down and sing the LCSG, the SEP, the Fr. Kelly Introits/Communions, the Fr. Weber Propers, the various Rice propers, etc... ~90% of the time it's the LCSG or another chant from the Lumen Christi series.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood Ally BruceL
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,353
    Additionally - SEP is much less complete than the Lumen Christi Series.

    Go, right now, and order a copy of the Lumen Christi Simple Gradual, Choir Edition. You'll see what I mean.


    (Yes, I work for Illuminare Publications.)
    Thanked by 1matthewj
  • Ally
    Posts: 223
    I would like to chime in and attest to the use of the LCSG in practice.

    Here at the Liturgical Institute, we are singing the chants from the LCSG with a psalm/alleluia supplement each day, with varying degrees of progressive solemnity according to the feast (the baseline is basically a sung Mass, with spoken lections and one cantor). Not that I doubted the ease of use of this book and its noble settings, but I must say it has been a pleasure to sing these chants each day.

    Here are just a few of the reasons why:
    1) Simple settings: they are simple enough for the congregation (not everyone here is a "trained" musician, they are people from all walks of life). They have been able to generally pick them up after one hearing.

    2)Noble: even though these settings are simple, the melodies have a noble quality about them that distinguishes them from psalm-tones or formuliac settings. They are composed with a "sound form", a quality that is fitting to the nature of the rites being celebrated.

    3)Text-based: The chants of the LCSG are thoroughly grounded in the meaning of the text, and express naturally the sense of the words. They are not pre-composed melodies that are paired with the texts, and they are not a pattern applied to all chants in the same mode. Personally, I see this as the greatest accomplishment of this book (and the reason I look forward with eager anticipation to the LC full gradual!) This week's communion (11th week in OT) is a prime example of this point of emphasis in the compositional process.

    4)Gregorian in inspiration: "The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes..." (Chirograph on the Centenary of the Motu Proprio "Tra le sollecitudini"). In the LC series this is accomplished while still remaining simple enough to sing.

    I strongly recommend that you go check out the Lumen Christi Simple Gradual, you will not be disappointed. I would agree with MJM, that when you sit down and sing the settings side-by-side, the vast majority of the time, the LCSG wins out.

    I do not work for Illuminare Publications:)

    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • donr
    Posts: 949
    We use the LCSG every Sunday, they are beautiful and easy to learn.

    I do not work for Illuminare Publications either
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Ally
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    SEP is generally considered good.

    And now organ books are available!

    Volume I
    Advent, Christmas, Lent, Holy Week, and Easter

    Volume II
    Ordinary Time, Feasts & Solemnities, and Ritual Masses
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen