Appropriate-ness of Alleluia, Sing to Jesus??
  • costanzodcostanzod
    Posts: 15
    Hello Forum Contributors,

    Although I seldom if ever post here, I do frequently read the many forum topics for education or amusement.

    In a conversation with my pastor (I was Music Director until yesterday), he criticized my choice of Alleluia, Sing to Jesus as a Recessional Hymn for Body & Blood of Christ (Corpus Cristi). He told me it was too celebratory and too much of an Easter hymn and I should have used something else. I am curious to hear thoughts/reactions of others to this 'critique.'
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I have a number of mixed reactions, falling on all sides of the question you raised.

    1. The hymn certainly has a lot of Alleluias in it, which might suggest "Easter" to some people.
    2. If Easter-ish, the second verse suggests post-Ascension. "the cloud from sight received Him"
    3. I've definitely used this on Corpus Christi, as a Communion meditation. It certainly refers to the Eucharist again and again.
    4. I think of the post-Easter feasts as prolonging the season, as though we want to savor the joy before returning to Ordinary Time. So I don't see a bright dividing line between Easter and Corpus Christi that would make the hymn inappropriate.

    Of course these considerations pale in comparison with "I was music Director until yesterday." This makes me wonder if this rather minor argument escalated and became the end of your ministry. I wonder if things just got out of hand. If it is only this once, and if things are otherwise generally reasonable, maybe neither of you was acting particularly like yourself, and apologies all around could be possible?

    (I'm inferring from what you said, and may not understand what you meant, so please excuse me if I'm out of line!)
    Thanked by 1costanzod
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,161
    As it happens, we used it as the recessional hymn on Corpus Christi Sunday, so costanzod is not alone.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    I used it as well on CC as the closing hymn--however since no one stayed to sing it, it was more of a "me and Jesus moment" and didn't really count! Everything else was played on piano and guitar so I still have job. ;)
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,390
    Check out: http://www.hymnary.org/text/alleluia_sing_to_jesus_his_the_scepter

    The hymn was written for the solemnity of the Ascension of the Lord!

    I think it is most appropriate for the solemnity of the Body and Blood of Christ.

    I agree with Kathy. I hope it is not too late, costanzod, for a reconciliation between you and your pastor.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 892
    It would also work well for the 7th Sunday of Easter, if only...
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I used it as a recessional hymn for CC. There are so few decent Eucharistic hymns in Ritual Song to begin with, it is one of the few I can use.
  • costanzodcostanzod
    Posts: 15
    Kathy, thank you for your comments and suggestion of an apology, etc. Please be assured you're not out of line in attempting to help me keep my employment! I appreciate it. Tomorrow onto file un-employment (1st time ever at age 32) :-(

    I had a meeting with the pastor yesterday after I filled out my self-assessment, staff are required to submit an 'annual' review (I was hired in Nov). The pastor used this as one of the only negatives he could find to criticize me and he began the meeting stating that he would not re-hire me. He didn't introduce the ASJ topic until many minutes later. I did not argue with him, rather, I simply accepted his commentary.

    His other commentary regarding my job performance was that I brought new repertoire to the parish, helped with beautiful liturgies, am very talented, very agreeable and flexible to work with etc etc leave me with a bitter taste in my mouth. IF he meant what he said; and IF there was a problem with my job performance, wouldn't a re-mediation plan be more appropriate?
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    I also used it as a recessional on CC.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    I think that pastor had to look long and hard to find anything to criticize. Using this hymn to criticize you was a real stretch, to begin with. It was a convenient excuse. Sometimes you have to shake the dust from your sandals and move on.
    Thanked by 2Ben Gavin
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Ouch. This is awful.

    Times like these are among the most bewildering experiences a person can go through. I am so sorry.

    Just a shot in the dark: I think it's possible that a music director he knows better might be hired soon. In other words, this might not be about you at all.

    If I were you I would absolutely get all of his very positive comments entirely on paper, so that it will be completely obvious to your next employer that you did a great job in your last position!
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Costenzod, sometimes they just want a change. It doesn't sound like it is personal. Ask him for a reference letter and go find work elsewhere. Good luck to you and God bless you in finding a new job.
    Thanked by 2canadash Chrism
  • costanzodcostanzod
    Posts: 15
    Thank you for validating my choice Rev. Krisman and others, I was just curious as to opinions.

    I am open to reading more opinions on the topic from others....
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    So, SEVEN months was enough to effectively judge your performance?

    Not even preliminary judgements or opinions should even be allowed to or begin to be formed until at least 6-8 months in ... I've been in my current post going on THREE YEARS this summer, and I feel that only NOW can we really begin to judge the effects, positive or negative, that I've had on the parish and what I can do better, etc.

    After seven months in my current job I was still learning names and still getting used to what hymns the parish may have known before, etc.
  • His other commentary regarding my job performance was that I brought new repertoire to the parish, helped with beautiful liturgies, am very talented, very agreeable and flexible to work with etc etc leave me with a bitter taste in my mouth.


    I don't quite understand this, he gave you a negative review saying he wouldn't rehire you after saying all that? I am confused. What part of that would be grounds to not rehire you?
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,162
    For what it's worth, that hymn is one of the episcopally official, approved, and recommended songs for the Entrance, on the Feast of Corpus Christi, in Canada.
    Thanked by 1costanzod
  • costanzodcostanzod
    Posts: 15
    PGA: My initial contract was from mid-Nov until June 30 to be in line with the fiscal year. I know of a conductor that stated he would not work as a public high school band/orch teacher for same reasons - he felt he would need a 4-year contract to turn around the seniors and move the existing students up a few levels.

    CB: His only truly negative feedback was that I didn't do little things such as swap out the Polish lectionary for the English lectionary between masses or I didn't come to the sacristy to help him find Communion ministers when he was short (Choir always was busy rehearsing before Mass). OF COURSE, the items he mentioned as 'should have been done' were NOT in my cotract nor were such matters ever even brought to my attention.
  • Steve QSteve Q
    Posts: 119
    I also used it as a recessional on CC.


    Me five.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • I used it as an entrance hymn on Corpus Christi. It is clearly Easter-Ascension-Eucharistic. It is also clear that your priest just wanted to be rid of you for reasons none of us could guess. It's not your fault.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I would take much solace in Kathy's observance this wasn't about you, czod. And it makes me crazy that pastors of souls continue to behave in such a feudal mentality. Despite all the empirical support for the hymn on that feast, I would have questioned the pastor, in all humility possible, to defend his taking offense over its use as a "recessional." Technically, there is no such thing as a "recessional." After "Deo gratias/thanks be to God" everyone is entitled to run, not walk to the nearest exit. In other words, his rationale is an illusion and therefore he's extended his jurisdiction beyond those of the documents and reason. Attaching a false "ethos" to your choice adds only insult to injury. But, the ship has sailed, so I'm praying and fairly sure brighter land is in your horizon view.
    Thanked by 2bkenney27 CHGiffen
  • lmassery
    Posts: 406
    I used it as a processional on Corpus Christi and found it appropriate
  • Jani
    Posts: 441
    Counting my blessings right now at being an appreciated volunteer in an otherwise musically starved parish. Sorry that happened to you costanzod.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 970
    I used it as a processional.

    As far as the termination, I've just come to believe that some priests just don't want you for whatever reason and they'll find any slim excuse to remove you. For me (though I wasn't removed... just heavily encouraged to leave) it was because I didn't do a good enough job getting the congregation to sing after 10 months on the job and that the pastor was "tired of telling" me what to do. I thought bosses were supposed to give orders at times?
    Thanked by 2Kathy CharlesW
  • Ironically, I criticized the use of this hymn at the Easter Vigil, saying that it was not an Easter hymn but a hymn for Ascension and/or Corpus Christi. (It was not used at the service the following year.) Stanza 2, "Alleluia, not as orphans are we left in sorrow now" refers, of course, to the Ascension. Stanzas 3 and 4, "Alleluia, Bread of Heaven..." and "...Thou on earth both priest and victim in the Eucharistic Feast" both refer specifically to the Eucharist. The pastor who criticized your choice of this hymn on Corpus Christi was incredibly stupid. Anyone but an idiot who was looking for something to cavil about could certainly have found something better.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    In our hymnal, it is listed as a Communion hymn. I've used it in all four places in the liturgy (E, P, C, and R) and never had a complaint, thought I admit it's not really great for Offertory, though not liturgically inappropriate.
  • Aaron
    Posts: 110
    I used it for Processional on CC.
  • veromaryveromary
    Posts: 160
    I used it at Communion 2nd or 3rd Sunday after Easter - trying to go for as many Alleluias as possible. Hadn't noticed before how Eucharistic it is.
    (Also hadn't realised that I still don't know the tune well enough to lead it, but father joined in and gave me time to grab a Campion Missal/Hymnal and sing from the music)
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    After the Offertory proper on CC.
  • So sorry to hear about your unemployment status. There are some things I have yet to figure out when it comes to being DM of a parish and I've held this position for almost 3 years, and was organist for 7 prior to that. I've left it all in God's hands, understanding that if the Lord put me in the position, then He and only He would take me out. Perhaps in your situation, you were meant to be there for a short time. Only God knows why this happened.

    As far as using Alleluia Sing to Jesus, I see no problem with that, especially as a recessional hymn (at any time of year, outside of Advent and Lent, of course). Since the recessional is not a part of the mass, anything that leaves the congregation singing and rejoicing (and this hymn seems to always do that), is appropriate.

    God bless you in your ministry. I'm sure the Lord has wonderful plans for you. Believe in yourself, your ministry and your talent, and things will all work out for you.
    Thanked by 1costanzod
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    More an Ascensiontide hymn, but not inappropriate for Corpus Christi or for Eastertide.
  • I thought bosses were supposed to give orders at times?

    Unfortunately, too many pastors go under the assumption that church musicians are clairvoyant and know exactly what is expected and wanted without a job description and/or meetings. In my case, I just "go with the flow". Yesterday, for example, I sang the Gospel Acclamation without a verse. The Year C Respond and Acclaim I've been using went from Corpus Christi to 11th Sunday Ordinary Time and, therefore, had no verse for 10th Sunday. I suppose I should have just chanted it from the Lectionary, but did not do so. After my 4th mass, my pastor called me into the sacristy and asked why I didn't do the verse (and this was after the 4th mass with the same priest, mind you). When I explained why, he said he wasn't upset, "just curious". Any other priest would have called me on the carpet for it. So, it depends on the priest and his frame of mind on any given day.

    I have an open-ended contract which leaves me very uncomfortable, but so be it. When I asked for a job description, I wasn't given one, either. But, I've learned not to complain. I will just have to continue using my sixth sense in order to know what is expected.
  • I don't know if I've used it for CC, but I certainly think it could be used quite nicely as a recessional at that time.
    I read it as most appropriate/specific for Ascension, then also Eastertide, then just about whenever outside penitential seasons.

    Are we not celebrating a "Eucharistic feast" every Sunday? I simply use it without the second verse, and probably program this 5-6 times a year. Great alto line in the harm. we use, and the congregation loves to sing it.

    I find it truly odd that a pastor would make an issue out of this. I agree with other posters- the problem is most likely not with you, or about you. From what you've said, I think you can move forward with self-confidence.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    When I explained why, he said he wasn't upset, "just curious". Any other priest would have called me on the carpet for it. So, it depends on the priest and his frame of mind on any given day.


    I have noticed that the atmosphere, employment or otherwise depends a lot on the personality and disposition of the priest. Everything, fortunately and sometimes unfortunately relies on the will and whim of the priest.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    .
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,390
    Newly-discovered unpublished novel by Graham Greene: The Will and the Whim
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Off topic-
    See, Padre, things do calm down over here quite often and we actually can be quite supportive of one another. Thanks to you and Fr. Jim for hanging around, particularly when we don't often benefit from a celebrant's perspective, much less major "insiders."
    How ironic that this comes on the heels of that irksome bugaboo of what constitutes clericalism, sigh....
    sDg,
    Charles
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    I think if this was the moment scheduled for the annual review for everyone, then the negative feedback you received may have had nothing to do with his decision not to renew the contract.

    Feedback is supposed to be a benefit that bosses provide their employees to help them grow. Bosses will often try hard to find some negative things to say. They will also re-use the feedback session time to discuss recent day-to-day affairs.

    When a contract ends on schedule, that's normal. No reasons need to be given. I see the contract was from November and you're relatively young, so perhaps they're looking for someone more experienced to fill the role full-time. I wonder why they were hiring in November in the first place.
  • As a teacher, I agree with Chrism, with regard to contracts ending on schedule. A contract is just that....a contract with length of employment specifics. If we are renewed, that's wonderful. But, if not, then we have nothing to really complain about since the terms of the contract were, after all, carried out. Every year in April/May I get nervous about my own teaching contract, as I'm getting older and there are so many younger music teachers out there. But, I leave it in the Lord's hands. So, far, so good!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The way year-to-year contracts are (generally) handled in Catholic Schools is appalling, particularly considering the Church's supposed stance on various aspects of social justice and worker's rights.

    Obviously, all employment is "at-will," and at the pleasure of the hiring entity. But the fear and uncertainty fostered by the "you've been here 20 years, and we can pretty much wait til the last moment to let you know you need to find a new job" system is an incredibly poor way to treat people, especially people who have dedicated their lives to the service of teaching.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    This problem must be brought to the attention of bishops and archbishops immediately and be REMEDIED BY THEM.

    It has come to my attention that in our diocese, and also many across the country, the official legal office, or whatever office advises on these things, is telling pastors to not have contracts for ANYONE so that they can be gotten rid of at will very easily.

    This is sound legal and administrative advice to be sure; but in light of Church teaching, the bishops and archbishops need to step up and say "NO, I don't care how good of legal advice it is, we hold ourselves to a higher standard and we will insist on contracts in light of social teaching - and if that makes it harder for us to fire an obstinate pagan worshipper working for us later, so be it."
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,469
    Good luck in that endeavor PaixGioa!
    Contracts don't mean anything anyway, since all diocesan contracts say that anyone can be fired at the will of the priest.
    When one is supporting a family, disagreements with the pastor/employer can create considerable fear, as in " if I disagree, will I be fired?" In such a situation (and don't all positions have some disagreement?) the pressure is always on the employee to simply agree.

    Consanzod, check with your human resources office in your diocese. Some have a mediation/termination service that can review situations like this. Of course, bringing this up may mean that your employer will not be all all inclined to give you a recommendation.
    It's always been tough in the Catholic Church, and I don't see things changing. We have no union, or any collective bargaining power. Why is it that auto workers, who generally have no college degrees have a powerful union, and music directors who have all kinds of degrees have no union?
    Comments welcome.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    since all diocesan contracts say that anyone can be fired at the will of the priest.

    This is always the case, and should be. Employers have (and should have) the right to cease employing people. And there's no way to stop individual people from being jerks.

    But the system- particularly the Catholic school system- is set up in a way that creates a level of uncertainty and fear that is completely unneeded.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 970
    In my own experience and in what I've seen around me, I've found that priests generally don't fire anyone. They instead do everything they can to make a person resign and only if the person continues to hang on after all the "encouragement" will they actually resort to firing.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,469
    Another comment:
    Several years ago, I was offered a position at a Cathedral, with a "three month probationary period". In other words, I was offered the job, move my family across country for three months to possibly start all over again, if I did not pass the probationary period.
    Of course, I did not accept the position. It was until unfilled for years, until a new rector was appointed who had more humanity. They now have a fine music director.
    We all have many stories and worse.
    Incidentally, the AGO used to have on their job notice board a "notice this church has unfairly terminated someone and is being investigated" tag for suspicious situations. But now, they do not have this, I would guess that it had no teeth and accomplished nothing.
    Again comments welcome!
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Actually, with the "trickle down" effect, and Pope Francis ... We might have bishops someday very in tune to these type of social justice issues who make it harder for their priests to act as sovereign lords who fire people because they didn't play the piano enough ...
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,469
    Dear Adam:
    Actually in many profession, workers cannot be fired at will. A prime example is the auto workers mentioned before. Just try and fire one if those workers. It is a long protracted process, and it the worker is actually fired, they are required to pay a year severance pay to the worker. This is true!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    As a long-time member, I can assure you the AGO is no threat to anyone. I have to say, after a career in Catholic education and parish music, I thought more highly of the Church before I worked for it. I have heard many others say the same.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    His only truly negative feedback was that I didn't do little things such as swap out the Polish lectionary for the English lectionary between masses or I didn't come to the sacristy to help him find Communion ministers when he was short (Choir always was busy rehearsing before Mass). OF COURSE, the items he mentioned as 'should have been done' were NOT in my cotract nor were such matters ever even brought to my attention.


    You are the organist, not the MC or Sacristan: those are their jobs. If he wanted you to perform the jobs of three people he should pay you the salaries of three people. Pathetic.
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • I think the problem here is that in the Catholic Church all employees are considered ministers and, therefore, no matter how educated or experienced, are subject to the will of the priest or community (pastoral council). I've been with the church for almost ten years now and have yet to see anyone in my parish not concerned about their jobs. That goes for teachers and other ministers alike. And most of us are not "doing this for fun" or "doing it as a hobby". I, for one, am the main breadwinner in my family. A loss of income from the church would prove to be devastating for me. Because of this, I often do duties outside of my position as school music teacher and parish DM. I don't want to rock any boats.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    ghmus - I have seen the AGO's "unfair termination" page online; I wasn't aware it no longer existed. But that makes perfect sense to me - when I looked at it, I always thought how pointless it was, in that most of the churches listed had been there for 10+ years, and anyone who has been around Catholic churches knows how quickly and completely a "regime change" can be - it doesn't seem quite fair to indefinitely "punish" a parish for the actions of a pastor from 3 pastors ago!
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    It all goes back to the will and whim of the priest. He can make the final decision without review or appeal. His personality influences EVERYTHING in a parish.