Text for Discussion: Wesley's Christ Whose Glory Fills the Skies
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Christ, whose glory fills the skies,
    Christ, the true, the only Light,
    Sun of Righteousness, arise,
    Triumph o’er the shades of night;
    Dayspring from on high, be near;
    Day-star, in my heart appear.

    Dark and cheerless is the morn
    Unaccompanied by Thee;
    Joyless is the day’s return
    Till Thy mercy’s beams I see;
    Till they inward light impart,
    Glad my eyes, and warm my heart.

    Visit then this soul of mine,
    Pierce the gloom of sin and grief;
    Fill me, Radiancy divine,
    Scatter all my unbelief;
    More and more Thyself display,
    Shining to the perfect day.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    1. Christ = light = joy
    2. No Christ = darkness = joylessness
    3. Lord, fill me with your light.

    A morning hymn sung by non-Catholics for nearly 275 years. Concise, coherent. Has a clear theme and progression of thought. What's there not to like and admire?
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Strikes me as a nice morning hymn.

    Also, the more I study hymn texts (and poetry in general), the more I question my own impulses to a certain brand of lyrical/poetic orderliness. Here, for example, the ABABCC rhyme scheme is something I can't imagine myself employing. I'm sure I would AABBCC any 2+2+2 six-line pattern.

    As a model of hymnody, the structure here I think is instructive:
    1 - General cry out to God, with strong imagery that sets the tone for the whole piece
    2 - Exposition that develops the theme- in this case, explanation of why God is needed and wanted, and how terrible things are without His grace
    3 - A more specific cry to God, repeating the request from (1), but in more personal language.

    If I was a hymnal editor I would be tempted to change "Radiancy."
    I hope I would resist that temptation.
    Thanked by 2Kathy CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Interesting comments, particularly about the structure of a hymn. Are most good hymns like this?

    I know of three texts in CU (Common Use) in 77.77.77. Two are ABABCC (For the Beauty of the Earth and Christ Whose Glory), and one is AABBCCC (As with Gladness Men of Old). Doubtless there are others of both kinds. I think an advantage is that the couplet at the end can be used to effectively sum up the preceeding lines, as in the sonnet form which alternates rhymed lines until the final couplet.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    about the structure of a hymn. Are most good hymns like this?


    Probably not. I was only saying it is one good model for structure. I'm sure there are many.

    as in the sonnet form


    I was thinking the same thing while looking at the verse's structure.

    Two are ABABCC (For the Beauty of the Earth and Christ Whose Glory),


    Two texts I doubt I would have had the wherewithal to write.

    I'm not defending my poetic scruples and rhyme-scheme hangups. I'm just saying- I have them. I like to think that I'm maturing, though: I've written a handful of LM texts in ABCB in the last year or two.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    image
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    The Golden Sequence Come, thou Holy Spirit, come, comprises six lines, with rhyme scheme AABCCB, but this is variously assigned the meter 77. 77. 77 or 777. D.

    Come, thou Holy Spirit, come,
    and from thy celestial home
    shed a ray of light divine!
    Come, thou Father of the poor!
    Come, thou Source of all our store!
    Come, within our bosoms shine!

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Yeah- it's definitely 3+3, not 2+2+2.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    By the way- this is why I'm not a very good composer, either. The same impulse that hems in my rhyme schemes stops me from using hardly any dissonance. I think it's a psychological problem, and I should probably talk to someone about it.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    You just need to be born a few centuries ago, musically.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    In general I love Wesley's poetry and sat down anticipating to enjoy this hymn.
    And I do, overall. I struggle with wanting to pray the second verse.

    "Dark and cheerless is the morn
    Unaccompanied by Thee"
    The morn is not dark- Mary the dawn brightens it. The morn is not cheerless...

    "Joyless is the day’s return
    Till Thy mercy’s beams I see."
    Here again I find the imagery incomplete.
    There is joy and spiritual fruit in anticipation. As Catholics we recognize Mary as the dawn, she who signals the rising of the sun. And furthermore we acknowledge the reddening of the sky before the dawn to be an image of St. Anne, mother of Mary and grandmother of The Lord.

    The words "dark, cheerless, joyless" do not reflect a Catholic understanding of the natural events mentioned. If this text was considered for daily use, my opinion is that the second verse would be too dreary for me to want to sing often. I prefer the liturgical imagery and associations of the moon, dawn, and pre-dawn. I also think its vital and life-giving to acknowledge the roles of holy women in salvation history and in our daily devotional lives. Where Mary and Anne and other women saints are overlooked in Protestant writing, I feel a real absence of truth.

  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    "Dark and cheerless is the morn
    Unaccompanied by Thee"
    The moon is not dark- it reflects the light of the sun. In Catholic imagery, Mary is often likened to the moon for this reason. The moon is not cheerless...


    The word is "morn," not "moon." And it's not saying anything is dark: it's saying it would be dark if God were not there. But God is there.

    The words "dark, cheerless, joyless" do not reflect a Catholic understanding of the natural events mentioned.


    Huh? I think half the meaning is being missed here. It's not "Dark and cheerless is the morn," as if to say flatly, "The morning is dark and cheerless." It's that if it were not for God's presence, it would be dark and cheerless indeed, implying that because God is present, it is filled with light.

    I think the Catholic/Protestant lines being drawn are a bit overgeneralizing.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    You just need to be born a few centuries ago, musically.

    That's a good plan. I'll work on it.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    What a difference a letter makes. I confess my glasses are a few prescriptions old. Corrected.

    The point still stands about dreariness, and one that is not shared in Catholic understanding/ imagery of natural events.

    To be clear, I don't think the Protestant/Catholic issue is enough to exclude this text from a hymnal or from occasional use during devotions or at Mass. Not at all. I just find it incomplete, missing an opportunity, so to speak. And the second verse strikes me as avoidably dreary.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Kathy, you know I don't like to, ahem, weigh in, on your texts, but I noticed that dark and cheerless stanza as well. Would despecifying "morn" by substituting "a" rather than "the" mitigate any perceived problem, in that only the heart unenlightened will mourn the loss?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Kathy, you know I don't like to, ahem, weigh in, on your texts,


    Not Kathy.
    Charles Wesley.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Interesting!

    Charles, it's not my text, but your namesake's, from the Wesley Brothers. It's kinda venerable; wouldn't edit it myself.

    I also sympathize with Wesley here, although both your points are well-taken. (Love, love love the moon imagery!)

    It's just that I have had similar experiences to those he mentions. I have had dreary mornings that completely turn around with a simple "raising the mind and heart to God." I think that's what he means here.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Told you guys I'm still on PST. Plus guys are on the roof putting in a new house A/C unit that Wendy wants for energy efficiency. All she had to do to lower the temp and the bill in the house is kick me out of it years ago!
    And I was named for Charles the Short, Pepin's illegitimate second cousin, once-removed.
    I withdraw my edition. I'm good at withdrawing.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    Sola fide, sola gratia... It is "Jesus, Jesus come to me" without any Eucharistic overtones.

    Oh, and slightly better poetry.
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    Chrism, hee hee.
    My brother calls those "Jesus is my boyfriend songs".
    (I'm not saying that Wesley's text has sunk to that level.)
    Thanked by 1Chrism
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