Text for discussion (Worship IV): My Elder Son, Go Work Today!
  • Heath
    Posts: 935
    I'm certainly enjoying the numerous discussions flying about here with Fr. Krisman and Fr. Chepponis.

    I wouldn't have bought the Worship IV hymnal for my congregation anyway (love the St. Michael!), but this was the text that made me close it with a thump when I first reviewed it:

    My Elder Son, Go Work Today! (no. 739)

    1. "My elder son, go work today! The corn is ripe, so don't delay!"
    "No, I won't go to work today. My friends are her, I'd rather play!"
    His father's need made him repent. He therefore changed his mind and went.

    (EDIT: Last 2 verses removed.)

    Text: Rae E. Whitney
    Tune: HICKORY HILL, Ronald F. Krisman

  • Heath
    Posts: 935
    (Text is copyrighted, so Fr. Krisman, please let me know if I should take it down.)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Are you serious? That's really in there?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    (Text is copyrighted, so Fr. Krisman, please let me know if I should take it down.)


    Criticism is FAIR USE (as is parody, which in this case is hardly needed.)
    Thanked by 3Heath MarkThompson Ben
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    By the way- I think this would make a fabulous children's book.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,181
    Well, at least the tune didn't make you close the book with a thump :-)
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood marajoy
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    This is a thing, by the way...

    image

    It is exactly like you would imagine.
    Thanked by 2Heath Kathy
  • Heath
    Posts: 935
    Chonak, I've appreciated Fr. Krisman's presence here so much that I refrained commenting on the tune with which it was paired. Read into that what you will. ; )
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    I received authorization from GIA yesterday to post some GIA-copyrighted texts here on MS Forum.

    Rae Whitney's text is not copyrighted by GIA, but by Selah. I cannot authorize your posting it here. Ask Selah.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    For some background, and in defense of Rae Whitney's text, as I remember "My Elder Son" was the only text we located as a hymn for the gospel for Sun 26 OT B. The text is playful, I will give you that, perhaps too playful for some of the commentators here. But it's not a bad text, any more than Jesus' parable is a bad parable.

    Good final line: Our minds can change; love sets us free to serve our Father joyfully.

    My tune is also playful.

    The hymn is indexed under "children's hymns," as well as several other categories. It's in a section with a title newly introduced in Worship IV: parables/teachings of Jesus
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Those are bad reasons.
    And, as a soon-to-be-dad myself, I'm appalled at the notion that my kid would be subjected to this sort of thing in liturgy.

    As for this in particular:
    the only text we located as a hymn for the gospel for Sun 26 OT B.


    I imagine we could cobble together something more passable here in 10 posts or less.

    Quick, anybody... what rhymes with disobey?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    And I want, so much, for the people who have been attacking W4 to be wrong, but then I read this sort of thing, and I think... right, then.

    Given the many good things that contemporary/progressive liturgical praxis has to offer, I'm constantly disappointed by this sort of thing coming from its primary purveyors.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    Adam, with respect I do not agree with your reasoning or your conclusions.

    I refrained from commenting about your own Ascension hymn. You may detect a subtle criticism of one element of it in what I wrote about THAXTED.

    If you begin "cobbling" texts, as if that is what a hymn writer does, that says a lot about how easy you think it is to write a good text.

    Heath, I think you began this thread only to ridicule. Isn't it time this is taken down?

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Adam, with respect I do not agree with your reasoning or your conclusions.


    That's okay.

    I refrained from commenting about your own Ascension hymn. You may detect a subtle criticism of one element of it in what I wrote about THAXTED.


    I assume you refer to the dotted-eighth-sixteenth figure. It not present in the first draft, was added in the second- thanks to Heath's suggestion. Other deviations from the meter I readily admit to, including the first two syllables of every verse. I am of mixed opinions about this generally (it's clear looking at the literature that such metrical scrupulosity is fairly modern).
    Moreover, I WELCOME CRITICISM for all my texts. I consider public comment to be an integral part of my process.

    If you begin "cobbling" texts, as if that is what a hymn writer does, that says a lot about how easy you think it is to write a good text.

    I don't think it's easy to write a GOOD text. I think would be easy to write a text that is better than the one presented here.

    And if "we need a text for every Sunday" was a requirement, I should think opening up a public "contest" of sorts would have garnered better results.

    Heath, I think you began this thread only to ridicule. Isn't it time this is taken down?


    Really?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    Adam,

    Concerning your meter changes for THAXTED, as I wrote in another place, it certainly is possible to slur notes, etc., and make a tune fit another meter. That's fine when works.

    My concern about what you did in the first two phrases of your Ascension text is this:
    The first eight notes of each of these phrases (and phrases 5 and 6 also) are exactly the same. Because of this similarity, I think it violates the form of the tune to give separate syllables to notes seven and eight of one or more of these four phrases, and only one syllable (under slurred eighth notes) to the rest.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    I think that's a valid criticism.

    The problem for me was that the entire impetus for the text was the phrase "Do Not stand and stare in wonder now, into the sky above" which came to me all in a flash, to that tune, while reading the texts of the Propers for the day. (That is to say- blame the Holy Spirit).

    I tried to amend it, I really did- but I could find nothing that worked the same way, so I left it (though I did remove "now," which was a prudent suggestion from both Kathy P. and my wife). I leave it to other people to decide whether to use it or not in liturgy. I would caution against using it in a class on how to best write a hymn text.

    I did feel, in the end, that notwithstanding any weaknesses, the text passed my own personal "so what" test (not everything I write does), and I can at least say with some confidence that while someone might criticize its craft, no one would find it "silly."

    Finally- one of the inherent qualities of my own Open Source approach to writing is that if you happen to like it, but think it could use just a little tweaking, you are more than welcome to do so. You could even include in Worship V without paying me a dime.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    Why stand and stare in wonder
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    I don't care for it.

    Actually- I much prefer two syllables instead of a melisma on the first two notes.
    In "O God beyond all praising," I think it works, less so in "I vow to thee...".
    "Three days" I think it works well, as it emphasizes the point.

    For me, "Do not" is the point. Not a question, but a command.
    Also "Wha-hai" doesn't work for me.

    Besides of which: the tune was originally instrumental. My opinion is that the particulars of note-to-syllable are not an integral aspect of the tune.
    But that's just my opinion, and you are more than welcome to yours.

    If you do decide to use it in Worship V, I would ask as a personal favor that you not amend it as you suggested. However, I will come right out and tell you that I have specifically disclaimed any legal means to force you, or anyone else, to honor that request. (I'd rather people respect it out of charity and good-heartedness, than out of fear of litigation. Again- that's just me.)
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,391
    I do not plan to work on Worship V.

    However, I may recommend MarkThompson, seeing the many fine comments he has contributed the past few days.

    But remember, unless the English translation of the Order of Mass is drastically changed in the coming years, there probably won't be a Worship V for 15-20 years, perhaps longer. Worship III was around 26 years (hard to believe).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    probably won't be a Worship V for 15-20 years, perhaps longer


    Excellent. I'm sure someone else will have written a better hymn for the Ascension by then, and it will be a moot point.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Mandalay. As in "I'm in 1007, Mandalay"
    Or more literally, "Frisco Bay." If you want to torque off the City natives.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,181
    1. A father called his first-born son: "Will you not come to work today?
    The corn is ripe; I need your aid," but his son answered, "Father, nay."
    Yet he repented and he said: "I was a jerk; I'll go to work."

    2. A father called his second son: "Will you not come to work today?
    The corn is ripe; I need your aid," and his son answered, "Right away!"
    But he stayed home and broke his word: he was too cool to be a nerd.

    3. ... ?
    Thanked by 4Kathy noel jones, aago MHI CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,706
    chonak.

    that is definitely a huge improvement.
    Thanked by 2chonak noel jones, aago
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,606
    The concept of choosing hymns for individual feasts is terribly flawed for a congregational book. You are guaranteeing that they will not sing.

    It's an insult to the average and below-average person to assume that they are musical enough to read and sing a hymn they have never heard before - and won't for another year - and a prime reason why Catholics do not sing today.

    For Monastic use - "hey, I remember when we sang this last year and the year before and the year before that, it's getting to be a favorite of mine" its fine, but for the average church? A waste of ink, time and most of all, the interest of Catholics in singing.

    As we have discussed here before, the more hymns you put in front of people, the less they will sing. Put one in front of them once a year - lost cause.
    Thanked by 2chonak canadash
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Two farmer's sons who lived among the fields of Galilee,
    Went in to ask their farmer dad, "What do you want of me?"
    He told each one to work the fields, to plough it to and fro,
    The elder son he answered yes, the younger one said no.
    Refrain:
    Saying that you will, it doesn't mean a thing.
    It doesn't mean a thing.

    The elder son who answered yes, his duties he did shirk
    All Haskell-like he smil-ed but he never went to work.
    The younger son, he changed his mind, he went out to the field,
    To seek the father's favor that obedience will yield.
    Refrain:
    Saying that you will, it doesn't mean a thing.
    It doesn't mean a thing.

    Now when the master calls you it's an easy thing to say
    That you will live and work and love the same way that you pray.
    But ever guard your life against hypocrisy and shame,
    that in the Book of Life the angels might just write your name.
    Refrain:
    Saying that you will, it doesn't mean a thing,
    It doesn't mean a thing.

    Good Christians if you sing this song, remember one thing more,
    That rhyming paraphrases aren't what Gospel hymns are for.
    The thing is to reflect the theme, expounding it until
    the lessons find a place and in your heart the Law instill.
    Oh!
    Singing back the text in rhyme is really weird,
    it's really freakin' weird.
    Thanked by 3chonak Andrew Motyka MHI
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    Mt 21:28-29

    .
    Thanked by 3chonak Spriggo Priestboi
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    Take this job and shove it...
    Thanked by 2francis Scott_W
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    If you begin "cobbling" texts, as if that is what a hymn writer does, that says a lot about how easy you think it is to write a good text.

    Under a deadline, I once wrote two hymns in an evening at a sushi restaurant in Annapolis.
    Thanked by 1Jenny
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    Mt 21:31

    .
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood Jenny Priestboi
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,697
    I plan to set Wood's text RECTO TONO, copyright it, and put it in my next book. THE RECTO TONO HYMNAL OF THE GOSPELS.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    To offer a serious alternative: Come, Labor On?
    Thanked by 3jpal Kathy BruceL
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,955
    I have had difficulty deciding what to do for Labor day for years. It isn't a religious holiday, and doesn't tie in to the liturgical year. The only religious connection I could remotely make, was that I suppose it could tie in loosely with the writings of Leo XIII on labor. Is this text being promoted as primarily a Labor Day hymn?
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    Here is a children's hymnal from 1907.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Here is a children's hymnal from 1907.


    This is clearly not a children's hymnal: I cannot find "Jesus Loves Me This I Know" in it anywhere. Or "I am a C-H-R-I-S-T-I-A-N!". Or any songs about Hippopotamuses.

    Are you sure you linked to the right file?
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    CharlesW,

    I've never chosen Labor Day hymns for the preceeding Sunday, except for America the Beautiful for the recessional, after the Mass is over.

    For Monday, how about these?

    Go, Labor On
    What Does the Lord Require
    Joseph, Walk the Way With Us
    Lord of All Hopefulness
  • Heath
    Posts: 935
    Sorry, was away from a computer for a time . . .

    Heath, I think you began this thread only to ridicule. Isn't it time this is taken down?


    I guess this is somewhat true, though it wasn't my main motive. We had a lot of commenters who kept disclaiming, "Well, I haven't seen the hymnal." I *had* seen it, liked a lot of what I saw, but really was dumbfounded when I saw the inclusion of this text. Just wanted to see if you or Fr. Chepponis could provide a justification for its presence.

    I'll sink the thread, however, as I don't want there to be any hard feelings about it.
  • Heath
    Posts: 935
    (Just kidding, it seems . . . not sure how to sink a thread anymore. Chonak?)
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