Liber Hymnarius
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Is this available online? (That is, is there downloadable PDF anywhere?)
    (Or is there a pirated PDF someone could smuggle to me?)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Also- is this the best and/or most complete collection of Office Hymnody?
    And if it isn't... what is?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I would also love this! I put together packets for sung vespers all the time, and it would be quite handy.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    It is a publication of Solesmes, under copyright.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    It is a publication of Solesmes, under copyright.

    So is the Gregorian Missal.
  • Aristotle EsguerraAristotle Esguerra
    Posts: 1,186
    An index/wiki is available and in progress here.

    Because it's not available online/I don't know the right people, a couple of months ago I broke down and purchased a hard copy from Paraclete Press, mainly to see the degree of difficulty of the chant melodies compared to those in the Liber Usualis. (We sing Lauds in English every Sunday, Wednesday, and Saturday.) Suffice it to say that for our purposes most of the LH melodies are probably a bit too intricate. Though I've considered simplifying them for our purposes, for the most part we sing the translations of the hymn texts to tunes designated by our hymnals (RitualSong and Gather Comprehensive I) for the seasons, e.g., Erhalt uns, Herr for Lent.

    As far as the second question goes, I consider the Liber Hymnarius to be the primary source of hymnody for the reformed Liturgy of the Hours until someone corrects me.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Adam: The abbey specifically gave CMAA permission to publish a PDF of the GM.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    The abbey specifically gave CMAA permission to publish a PDF of the GM.


    Yes I know- that's why I was hoping that maybe a similar permission had been given for this. I guess not. Ah well. There's a reason Amazon still sells things that have mass and displace water.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Well, could the abbey grant permission for this as well?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    No, of course not.
    [Ben, there are such things as silly questions.]
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I absolutely cannot tell which direction the sarcasm there is going.
    But- anyone have their phone number? Or do they communicate via messenger owl?
    Thanked by 3francis Ryan Murphy Ben
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    This sounds like a question for Jeffrey Tucker.

    There may be considerations involved. Maybe they gave us the GM permission because sales were low anyway. (Whereas they probably never expected sales for the LH.)

  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    @chonak is there a way to make @-calls work for names with spaces in them?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Alas, no. One cannot tag a user whose name contains a space.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    @ Adam Wood - Yep.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    nope, I'm messing with you. I did that manually. :)
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    foiled again!
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Well, you can't tag him, but screaming "Tuckah!" seems to work. Let's try again:

    Tuckah! We need your help again
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I love and respect Jeffrey Tucker as does most everyone here.
    But I find it disturbing to lift him to iconic status particularly when he's expanding his work load and portfolio to portions larger than my waistline. May I remind any who care, CMAA is a collaborative enterprise, and no one single person exemplifies CMAA, or pulls its strings unbeknownst to all but cognescenti. It will succeed if it keeps to that, or become an NPM, NRA, or the like.
    I'd personally be happy if I could receive back issues of SACRED MUSIC that I think date back to Fall/Winter 11. And I know JennyD/Bill S. are working beyond the pale to make that happen.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I think, in this case, the issue is that he was the one who originally reached out to Solesmes about putting the GR online. But that was a long time ago.

    Anyone else know Owl Post number?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Here's what JT wrote about the GR and GM in December 2011:
    Look, none of these chants are in copyright. Neither are the engravings of the chant. The particular book in which all this stuff appears could be said to be copyright protected but that is a pretty thin claim that would not go anywhere in court. So why isn't it online? We are just trying to be polite here. The GM Solesmes gave us explicit permission for; the GR it has not, but then again I've not actually asked. I pushed the Triplex and there was resistance. The GR could be posted.


    Most of the hymns in the LH are old enough to be out of copyright. You're quite free to print engravings from the old books whose copyright status is really clear. And you're free to make new engravings of the classic repertoire out of the old books -- and they will usually match what is in the LH. However, some hymn texts in the LH are new; several were written by the editor. Those have a more plausible copyright claim (I suppose).

  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    AW, I knew that. He's the Tazmanian Angel and, like Larry the Cable Guy, will get 'er done. But he can't do it all. I know of at least three of us, all Superwomen, who've been and acquainted themselves withTPTB in France, who could make such entreaties.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Amazon has it for about 64 bucks, GIA, Paraclete Press & SheetMusicPlus for 60 bucks, and OCP for 54 bucks.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    However, some hymn texts in the LH are new; several were written by the editor. Those have a more plausible copyright claim (I suppose).


    Nearly all (if not completely all) of the hymn texts in the Liber Hymnarius are from the Latin Liturgia Horarum, so even if a monk of Solesmes happened to compose one of the texts, he did so for the Vatican in the 1960s, not Solesmes in the 1980s. The texts would be copyright Libreria Editrice Vaticana, not Solesmes.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Dr. Mahrt commented on those neo-Gregorian hymns on the forum in 2008:
    I have a particular reservation about the Liber Hymnarius: it contains Latin hymns by some of the great hymnodists, St. Ambrose, Venantius Fortunatus, etc., a few by each of them, and then over forty by a certain Benedictine, Fr. Lentini, the editor of the Liber Hymnarius. I submit that the traditional repertory of hymns should have been the source of practically all of the hymns, with less recourse to the editor for his own compositions.

    and further:
    In the Liber Hymnarius, many of the texts are new compositions; the melodies, in general, are traditional Gregorian tunes, but in new versions.

    Fr. Lentini, the editor of Te decet hymnus, a commentary on the Liber Hymnarius, and presumably the editor of the LH itself, gives an index of authors: The great hymn writers get the following numbers: St. Ambrose, 8; Jacopone da Todi, 3 with question marks; Paul the Deacon, 3 with question marks; Prudentianus, 10; Venantius Fortunatus, 3.

    Anselmo Lentini, OSB gets forty-three!
    Thanked by 1Aristotle Esguerra
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    In the same thread, member gsmisek commented:
    Many of the hymns fill in holes where there were no proper hymns, whether because the feast didn't have a proper hymn (e.g., St. Luke, Oct. 18, which used the hymn from the Common of Apostles) or because the feast was new (e.g., the newly merged feast of the Holy Archangels Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael, Sept. 29). Many are Office of Readings/Matins hymns, which are rarely heard outside monasteries. Occasionally he gives brief explanations for the new compositions, but most of his compositions he passes over without any comment.

    The biggest shocker was finding the Christmas Matins hymn authored by Fr. Lentini (previously the Vespers hymn was use). There weren't any suitable hymns in the patrimony of hymnody for this one (one of the few Matins offices that are supposed to be sung in cathedrals and other secular churches annually)?

    Fr. Lentini authored all the hymns for the Office of the Dead (which previously had none).

    His explanation for his two new hymns for the feast of St. Mary Magdalene (July 22) is one of the longer ones. He explains that the "copious hymnographic tradition" reflects the confusion of the Magdalene with Mary of Bethany and the sinful woman, and so "it seemed necessary to compose new hymns" based on the explicit Gospel references. Granting, for the sake of argument, this need to change hymns, I'd be surprised if the Dominicans didn't have something suitable for the "Apostle to the Apostles"? Anybody know?

    I'm also a little surprised that the lack of a proper hymn for St. John Chrysostom (new calendar, Sept. 13, old calendar Jan. 27) had to be supplied with a fresh composition. I would have thought the East would be replete with hymns for this great Doctor of the Church, Patriarch of Constantinople, and author of the most-used Divine Liturgy outside Western Christendom.
    Thanked by 1Aristotle Esguerra
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    melo

    how about if we start the CMARA? tagline: sing our music... or else.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    His explanation for his two new hymns for the feast of St. Mary Magdalene (July 22) is one of the longer ones. He explains that the "copious hymnographic tradition" reflects the confusion of the Magdalene with Mary of Bethany and the sinful woman, and so "it seemed necessary to compose new hymns" based on the explicit Gospel references. Granting, for the sake of argument, this need to change hymns, I'd be surprised if the Dominicans didn't have something suitable for the "Apostle to the Apostles"? Anybody know?


    I'd imagine the Summit Choir Book Would have two or three.

    I agree with the frustrations voiced about the number of new hymns. They seem relatively workaday. But, there are treasures in the LH.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I wasn't aware of all those details, and I don't necessarily disagree with any of the issues raised surrounding new hymn composition, but I have to keep emphasizing one small detail which, if my understanding is correct, seems to be misconstrued above, and somebody please correct me if I'm wrong...

    Weren't the new hymn texts originally issued around 1970 with the Liturgia Horarum some 13 years before the Liber Hymnarius? Therefore, it really isn't a question about Solesmes creating the texts for the Liber Hymnarius, as much as they were providing a book with musical notation for the hymn texts included in the Liturgia Horarum.

    While it doesn't seem certain from Dr. Mahrt's comments that Fr. Lentini was the editor of the Liber Hymnarius (he says "presumably"), one need only look at the dates on the two publications (Liturgia Horarum originally ~1970, and Liber Hymarius 1983) to see that, even if Fr. Lentini was the editor of the Liber Hymnarius, he did not make the decision to include his hymns, the Consilium did in the fashioning of the Liturgia Horarum, which the Liber Hymnarius merely follows.

    The only reason I could think of for what I propose to not be true is if these new hymn texts were not included in the original 1970 edition of the Liturgia Horarum, but only included in the 1985 editio typica altera. Does anybody know this?
    Thanked by 1Chris Hebard
  • Royce Nickel
    Posts: 72
    By the way, does anyone know of an available English translation of the LH's "Praenotanda"?
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I don't have a copy of the Liber Hymnarius - and won't get one soon, either, the 1934 Antiphonale Monasticum is good enough for me - but it seems odd that Vatican II said:

    93. Hymns are to be rsetored to their original form, as far as may be desirable. Whatever smacks of mythology or accords ill with christian piety is to be removed or changed. Also, as is judged appropriate, other selections are to be made from the treasury of hymns. (Sacrosanctum Concilium, chapter IV.)


    And yet the new Liturgia Horarum and subsequent Liber Hymnarius included so many Neo-Gregorian pieces and newly composed texts: something that the reformers before, and, it seems to me, during the council were trying to expunge in favor of authentic pieces. A Paradox. (cue G&S)
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    If one is digging around for some rich chant hymns, what about the cantus selecti? I haven't opened it in a while, but I remember oohing and aaahing last time I did.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The old Christmas sequence "Laetabundus" is a gem.

    And then there's "Salve festa dies".

    Pothier's Cantus Mariales is also a treasure trove, especially for mediaeval sequences and proses
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    The old Christmas sequence "Laetabundus" is a gem.


    AMAZING
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Is the Liber Hymnarius supposed to reflect the Roman Liturgia Horarum? I thought it was intended for the monastic office (which might differ in some ways). Let's check.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    It has a section for the monastic office, which is separate from the main body of the book.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    hymns for the feast of St. Mary Magdalene (July 22)

    Kathy: I'd imagine the Summit Choir Book Would have two or three.

    The Summit Choir Book has two hymns for SMM.

    # 332 O Church, with Magdalen this day
    L.M. / (c) Text: DNS (based on Johyn Mason Neale's translation of Lauda, Mater Ecclesia by Odo of Cluuny, 10th Century) / Tune: PSALM 131 (SEIGNEUR, JE N'AY POINT), Genevan Psalter (1551), Jean Crespin; harmony by Claudin le Jeune (1528-1600)

    # 333 Ordained from all eternity the Son of God to meet
    86.86.88.57 / (c) Text: DNS / Tune: UNE VIERGE FECONDE, French carol melody, 16th Century; (c) harmony by DNS
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Thanks, eft94530.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    @SkirpR: I have checked a few Lentini hymns in a 1977 printing of the Liturgia Horarum, and they are the same as in the Liber Hymnarius.

    So it appears that the adoption of Fr. Lentini's hymns in the Office goes back to the revision of the Liturgia Horarum. Does anyone know if they are specified in the Ordo Cantus Officii?
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,048
    The Summit Choirbook has another hymn appropriate for Mary Magdalen, though it is designated for Our Lady of Sorrows in the hymnal:

    #357 Drop Down, Slow Tears, and Bathe Those Beauteous Feet
    10.10 / Text: Phineas Fletcher (1582-1650) / Tune: SONG 46, Orlando Gibbons (1583-1625)
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Does anyone know if they are specified in the Ordo Cantus Officii?


    I don't have access to my OCO right now, but I believe that they do, sometimes suggested to go with different melodies than were soon thereafter assigned in the Liber Hymnarius. In fact, I recall a comment in the front matter of the OCO that some of the unreferenceable antiphons (many being Invitatory antiphons) were expected to become available in the "forthcoming Liber Hymnarius" or something like that...

    The Liber Hymnarius is not solely a monastic book. I believe the title page includes the phrase "Antiphonale Romanum" in it, i.e., it forms part of the still incomplete OF Antiphonale Romanum.

    However it is also for OF monastic use. If one examines the 2006-2008 Antiphonale Monasticum volumes, it references the Liber Hymnarius and it is clear that OF Benedictine usage therein mirrors the structure of the Liturgia Horarum with regard to almost all elements except the distribution of Psalms (the Benedictine Rule requiring a one-week Psalter). There is some flexibility given, however, to individual abbots as to how exactly they want to implement the ordo in their abbey.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 997
    Yes, the title page of the Liber Hymnarius says: "Antiphonale Romanum secundum Liturgiam Horarum Ordinemque Cantus Officii dispositum ... Tomus Alter".

    My OCO has an index of all hyms, with page references to the Liber Hymnarius.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    My OCO has an index of all hyms, with page references to the Liber Hymnarius.


    So it does! But the actual body of the OCO doesn't make reference to the Liber Hymnarius - probably because it was just coming on the scene at the around the same time the OCO was being published. The following note is at the end of the OCO's Praenotanda:

    N.B. Libri Hymarii recens editio (Solesmis 1983) possibilitatem in Indicibus dedit definiendi remissiones ad paginas voluminis istius atque ita supprimendi signum * (= nondum editum) pro antiphonis invitatorii, hymnis ac responsoriis.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    So if I wanted to (just, for example) attempt to compile a more or less complete set of Gregorian Hymnody, I might need....?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    hahahahaha
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Here's a good place to begin http://archive.org/details/hymnsbreviaryan00britgoog


    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    No tunes in that.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    Sorry, I'm a words words girl. Tunnel vision. Paging Dr. Mahrt!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Sorry, I'm a words words girl.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcy1WEeh6Bk
    Thanked by 1gregp
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    This is helpful, though- it's a start.
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    The most complete edition of hymn tunes is Monumenta Monodica Medii Aevi Vol. I by Bruno Stäblein.
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