The Lee Gloria (Mode VIII) and COPYRIGHT
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    How does the copyright really work on the John Lee Gloria?

    For those that don't know, the Gloria is just the Mode VIII Psalm tone with the Gloria text.

    ICEL has the copyright of the Gloria text.
    Lee didn't "compose" Mode VIII.
    Neither did GIA.
    He took a text and set it to a Psalm tone that's been around for hundreds of years.
    Sure, he chose on which words we would change notes, but that seems fairly clear and obvious...

    Can anyone just take a text, set it to a Psalm tone, and then copyright it and require you to pay royalties to them for using it? If I copyrighted the Sanctus sung to a Mode V Psalm tone and then you tried to print it in a worship aid, could I sue you?

    It just boggles my mind to think that the Gloria sung to Mode VIII is somehow under copyright...
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Starting to feel guilty about the RECTO TONO copyright situation?
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    I would also like to know the answer to matthewj's question. How on earth is that "copyright-able?" How can they charge me to use an ancient psalm tone?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    They can claim it's under copyright, but that doesn't make it so.
  • WJA
    Posts: 237
    They can claim it's under copyright, but that doesn't make it so.

    Precisely. Although we commonly talk about something being "under copyright," it is more accurate to say that so-and-so claims copyright in such-and-such work. Then the question is whether and to what extent the claim is valid. That's a legal question and the answer does not depend on the claimant's say-so but rather legal standards like originality.

    In the case of the ICEL Gloria text set to the Mode VIII psalm tone:

    1. ICEL claims copyright in the text, and that claim is probably valid (a translation is generally subject to copyright).

    2. If the composer claims copyright in the Mode VIII psalm tone, that claim is invalid, because the psalm tone is public domain and thus no one has copyright in it.

    3. Assuming the composer has a license to use the ICEL text, if the composer claims copyright in the arrangement of the text to the tone, I question the validity of that claim. Copyright requires "originality" which requires "at least some minimal degree of creativity." That's a low threshold, but is it met by the straightforward application of a formula to text?

    Now, if somebody sets the ICEL text to the Mode VIII psalm tone and wants to charge me money to use it, my choices are:

    1. Pay the money;

    2. Don't pay the money and use it anyway, and if they sue me for copyright infringement, defend myself against the claim.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood irishtenor CHGiffen
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Well, you know, it's that one phrase (right hand of the Father) that makes the difference. He changed the music from the psalm tone there, making it illegal for the rest of us to use.

    < / sarcasm >
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    You can also claim copyright (often validly) over the engraving and layout.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Adam is correct. Also, he can probably claim valid copyright over the accompaniment.

    I agree, though, that he would have a hard time defending the actual arrangement of text-to-psalm tone.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    This. Message. Is. Copyright. Protected.
    Thanked by 5Adam Wood matthewj Andrew Motyka CHGiffen Ben
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