Is this an error in the LU (or just in my understanding of it)?
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I assume I'm missing something here ...

    The first image below shows the antiphons for the 4th and 5th vesper psalms for the Ascension from the 1961 Liber Usualis. As you can see, Antiphon 4 is in mode 8 with the termination G*, and Antiphon 5 is in mode 8 with the termination G. Also shown are the euouae indications for those psalms: identical, ending on sol.

    The second image is from the Liber's table of psalm tones. What's this? The tone G* ends with a podatus and so actually terminates on la.

    This is not the only place I've seen this kind of discrepancy. Is this an error? If not, what is the explanation? Advice gladly taken.

    image

    image
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Looking at the Liber Antiphonarius, 1949, this is set exactly the same... Also the second Antiphon for this feast is set with the same discrepancy.

    Looking at the directions for the 8th tone "Quando Antiphona notatur cum G*, potest ad libitum adhiberi Differentia sequins: " then follows the 8G* tone.

    This if I have my understanding of the Latin correct is that Tone 8G* is optional. When we sing Vespers we always use the option, I know other places don't sing the option.
    Thanked by 1MarkThompson
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Yes, this was my finding as well; it is the same thing for tone 4a* / 4a.
    To be less confusing, in my typesetting, I thus give two euouae's for such antiphons, giving the first option, vel, the second option.
    Thanked by 1MarkThompson
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Okay, just optional. That had occurred to me, and I looked for something in the LU that would indicate such, but I didn't find it. Good to know, thanks!
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    At the risk of calling down great opprobrium on my head, I will admit to having only cursorily studied the Psalms in the LU. I have just followed the singers who know when I have been in choirs. What is the significance of the " * " in "G*?"

    Kenneth
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Kenneth

    As the instructions in the Antiphonal suggest it is an extra note added to the end of Tone 8.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    Now the conversation makes some sense to the tyro--you are saying that the "*"is the "differentia sequins" that one can add "ad libitum." So the answer to Mark's question, then, to make it explicit, is that the " * " means "ad libitum," and the podatus means that an editor took the "libitum" to supply the note?
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    I understand it to be an option as well.

    What strikes you as a possible error- that a termination in that mode could end on la?

    It would be interesting to know where geographically that particular option might have originated, if it's possible to know at this point in history.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    No, what had struck me as possibly in error was that the euouae printed along with the antiphon did not match the ending of G*.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    "euouae"

    ...makes a great vocal exercise for vowel formation, BTW
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    And how is one to pronounce the wonderful website/group in San Francisco? I went to a concert by "ee-oo-oh-oo--ah--eh?" That's how I say it in my head. Just funnin' here--it's a great website---but, actually, I did kind of wonder...

    Kenneth
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Ask "incantu"; it's his group. Of course, he may leave "euouae" as a gnomic mystery.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I always pronunce it "werelt withoute ende"
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    "ee-oo-oh-oo--ah--eh?" That's how I say it in my head.

    For the most part, I pronounce "e u o u a e" in my head more like "eh - oo - aw - oo - ah - eh" ... no "ee" nor "oh" ... grins. Other times I simply pronounce and read it as "Saeculorum. Amen."

    'Nuff said.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    True-- I say eh, not ee, which would be i ...
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    I once heard that there was a Russian schola that recorded a chant CD, and every instance of euouae was chanted by them on the CD. Apparently they didn't know what it meant and figured it's part of the music. That would be very odd to hear, and possibly hilarious.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    In Soviet Russia, punctum mora makes you die away.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    And the umlauted "u" when the French sing "sanctus" and the "v" sound when Germans sing "kvee tollis..." I once was part of an acting competition, and all these conservatory trained actors started off with perfect Received Pronunciation (Oxbridge), only to lost it as they got terrified/lost concentration further along in the monologue. It's a pretty common problem singing in a foreign language.
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