Frustration, anger, outrage . . .
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Now that I have your attention, I'm really up against a problem I can't seem to solve and despite my best efforts to search I'm not coming up with a solution.

    The problem: a suitable setting of the revised translation of the Gloria.
    The solution: the John Lee/Proulx Antiphonal Gloria.

    The problem: GIA controls the copyright and will not permit a long-term reprint (as in printing it out on card stock so that it will hold up to repeated usage for the next several months until the congregation can sing it without music.)

    I went absolutely around in circles with those folk at GIA and OneLicense.net about the situation and their ONLY solution was to require us to purchase an annual reprint license at a huge cost to the parish.

    I need not tell you that I made it abundantly clear that they were quite viciously confirming every ill word that was said about them with respect to their confiscatory, over-reaching and over-controlling publishing and reprint permission policies, and that I intended never to purchase another item from them.

    Of course, I feel better for having vented, but am still left with the problem of finding a simple, chant-based setting of the revised translation of the Gloria that my congregation can learn quickly without the constant support of a cantor or a choir (both of which our parish has lacked for many years for a multitude of reasons I won't go into here) and that will come with either a reasonable reprint fee or is in the creative commons. The Lee setting was excellent for the very reason that it was set to a psalm tone- repetitive and predictable.

    Now, unless I'm suffering from male-pattern blindness and can't see an obvious one before me, I seem to only be finding settings of the old translation but not the new one that fits my description. And, for the record I really don't want to do the one provided by ICEL, and even if I did, where does one obtain permission to reprint it? There is a wonderful re-working of the ICEL chant by Fr. Columba Kelly, OSB, but I don't believe he's made it available in the commons at this point.

    Thank you in advance for any solutions you may have to recommend.
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Dear David,

    All the new settings here use the new text.

    Perhaps you will find some of them useful. Based on what you say, you might want to look in particular at SHERWIN, ANNE LINE, and (perhaps) ARROWSMITH, but there's like 20-30 others that are really nice. All the settings in the V2H have USCCB approval.

    All the settings on that page (even the ones at the very bottom) can be freely reprinted and shared, to my knowledge.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood tomjaw IanW Chris Allen
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,181
    .
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Did you check Fr Kelly's "St Meinrad Kyriale", I think that's in the commons.

    I put up a version of Henri du Mont's Mass in the Sixth Mode to the new ICEL here on the Forum (link below). Please feel free to use it; I also have a version of the Messe Royale that I will post soon. They are both in 'modren' notation, so if you (or anyone else) want to put it into neums, feel free. My 'reprint fee' if you use it is a Pater, Ave, and Gloria Patri.

    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/8393/english-version-of-henri-du-monts-mass-in-the-sixth-mode/p1
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,698
    The Lee Gloria is such an odd thing. How can one copyright setting a text to Mode VIII? Quick someone rush and copyright setting the Gloria to modes I - VII.
    Thanked by 3marajoy Salieri Chris Allen
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    These are all very beautiful, but they're also through-composed. I'm afraid the congregation would go crazy trying to learn these, as the previous one they sang for the last 40 years was overly-simplistic and "sing-songy." (It was a rather clumsy re-working of the Gloria from the "English People's Mass").

    I'm really trying to find a psalm tone-based one.

    I did recheck the St. Meinrad site, and they have not made their new kyriale available yet. (Everything there is pre-revised translation).
    Thanked by 1Paul_Onnonhoaraton
  • Spriggo
    Posts: 122
    You might have a look at Proulx's "Gloria Simplex."
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Regarding my prejudice against the ICEL Gloria, does anyone really use it?

    Good grief, what a dreary and boring setting!

    Or am I being irrational about it?
    Thanked by 1francis
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    I don't use it, and I agree with you. It is quite boring, and with as many Masses as I have on the weekend, I certainly don't need another thing to add to my nodding off. I am sure the congregation would be happy without hearing me snore,,, lol
  • lmassery
    Posts: 422
    I second proulx's Missa Simplex. WLP has it and they are much more generous with reprint permissions. It isn't literally psalm-tone based but it almost could be - it is chant like and repetitive
    Thanked by 4Spriggo francis Jenny Ralph Bednarz
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    David, this solution meets some of your requirements, and perhaps doesn't in some concerns- Mass of the Angels by Richard Clark (also affiliated with CCW), published by Gary Penkala/CanticaNova. Based on the de Angelis, uses the incipit as a refrain, though Richard's indicated clearly how it can be through-sung. I think that it meets the same high standards AND choral/congregational accessibility of Sherwin/Bancks/St. Therese (Nickel)/ and even Mueller. In fact, we're waiting before switching from the Therese Sanctus-Agnus to Mueller until our copies of the Clark arrive and we sing through them.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Gentlepersons, we've already stomped on ICEL Glory in many threads. I happen to be on the pro-side, as long as it moves briskly. Even moreso, if it's accompanied by, ahem (blush) my accompaniment which also uses a soprano ison in Latin.
    What bothers me about ICEL is that for some reason, and I'd love to hear AWR's account of this, they used Jubilate Deo, commonly dubbed "The Death Mass" and perpetuated that.
    Thanked by 3Aristotle Esguerra SamuelDorlaque Ralph Bednarz
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    What bothers me about ICEL is that for some reason, and I'd love to hear AWR's account of this, they used Jubilate Deo, commonly dubbed "The Death Mass" and perpetuated that.


    Isn't that because, uh, all Catholics were asked to know at least that setting? Even if not ideal, it seems a logical (if not good) place to start.
    Thanked by 1Aristotle Esguerra
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    And who/where/when/why did that actually happen around God's green earth? ;-)
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    At my church! And we weren't even supposed to learn it... we had a different one in Canada!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,973
    I use the ICEL chant mass - all of it, with no problems. Was it entertainment in 19th century Russia? It was not. Is outrage! Next you be wanting Pirozhki and tea with divine worship.
    Thanked by 1Aristotle Esguerra
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    Passing you the tea cups haha
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Problem SOLVED!

    I checked out the Proulx "Gloria Simplex" and it is, to my mind, actually better than the Lee.

    I contacted World Library Publications, and they were both helpful and cooperative. They still offer a "permanent hymnal" reprint that turns out to be appropriate and cost-effective, and the entire project can be handled online with minimal fuss.

    I did have a follow-up conversation with customer service at GIA, and they said that after they got off the phone with me they put their heads together and were prepared to "work something out." I told them flatly that it was too late, that they should have had a reasonable solution available at the outset and that my decision to go with the WLP product was my final answer. I also requested that our address be removed from their lists, as I no longer wished to receive the "Quarterly" (which I'm not even sure why we receive it when we don't use GIA hymnals) nor did I wish to receive any more promotional flyers for hymnals, etc.

    Shame on GIA for making their products and services so "user UNfriendly" and kudos to WLP for being sensitive and aware of the needs of us in the trenches.
    Thanked by 3Spriggo melofluent SamuelDorlaque
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Two of the WLP (we're an OCP parish) settings made our cut in '10, Simplex (trad) and St. Ann (Bolduc/contemp.) I think they are presenting a more inviting presence as well, witness Dr. Jerry....
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood Ralph Bednarz
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    @melofluent, thanks for mentioning the St. Ann Mass. I hadn't heard that one before, and I am trying to get rid of the Mass of Renewal from OCP. That might just fit the bill for the contemporary Mass.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    St. Anne by Bolduc - best Contemporary Styled new-text Mass setting available.
    Simple ala Proulx - Wonderful!
    http://musicforsunday.com/2011/reviews-of-mass-settings-with-new-translations-wlp-new-settings

    Also, in the Psalm-tone-like world, check the Psallite Mass from Lit Press:
    http://musicforsunday.com/2011/new-mass-setting-reviews-psallite-mass-at-the-table-of-the-lord

    (and also, yes- WLP is the most helpful and servant-minded of the Big Publishers. Jerry G. is a great guy.)
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • musicman923
    Posts: 239
    I am currently using the Proulx Missa Simplex Gloria and the congregation is picking it up with no issues at all! I like that it is a Gloria that does not have a repeating refrain! A repeated Gloria refrain really breaks up the Gloria prayer text and it's not how we recited it if we were to recited it again by using the repeating refrain version,
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    For what it's worth, you (or anyone, for that matter) are welcome to use my setting, inspired by the Ave Maris Stella chant. We read through it at the colloquium in 2010. I've since raised it a step for my children's choir (they learned it one rehearsal, btw), but just e-mail me if you'd like it in another key.
    Olbash - Gloria - Star of the Sea.pdf
    45K
    Thanked by 2canadash SamuelDorlaque
  • WittManWilsonWittManWilson
    Posts: 76
    Walker's Belmont Gloria (OCP) is one that my congregation picked up very easily. I like both that one and the Gloria Simplex.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    There might be some copyright issues, but I'm hoping to release THE RECTO TONO ORDINARIES soon.

    (Why plural? THERE ARE SEVENTEEN OF THEM!)
    Thanked by 4Ben BruceL MarkThompson SkirpR
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    You must be doing various editions with different barlines and rhythm symbols in different spots.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    But there are only twelve tones! Are you working in some funky Persian-style quarter tones?

    (BTW, you might have to wrestle Meloche to the ground for the rights to this idea.)
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    only twelve tones!

    five of which can be written two different ways

    I'm including all 12 pitches, and each enharmonic spelling, because The Church Requires That All Available Options Be Included Without Preference.
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka SkirpR
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507
    If you buy the octavo, it comes with permission to reprint for the congregation. At least it did in the fall of 2011.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Adam, how about this??
    Recto Tono Gloria.jpg
    703 x 207 - 47K
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Adam Wood ScottKChicago
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    Chant based Gloria? What do we really think of when we hear or say "chant based" music? Some of these examples seem pretty far from my idea of what others (and myself) would regard as "chant based" ... unless maybe "plainchant" or "plainsong" or "faux-chant" is the new stock in trade.

    I must have missed the chant-boat.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507
    In the Lee example, I think it mostly means that there is a reciting tone or two. Structurally it works like a Psalm tone.

    p.s. If you've missed the boat there is still another chants.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    CHGiffen,

    For a thoroughgoing discussion on the application of rules and conventions for Gregorian chant that is modified for and applied to English language texts, contact Fr. Columba Kelly, OSB. He has been working for some time now on the development of a semiological approach to English language-based chant, and I find his work fascinating and convincing. He's done some truly valuable work, including a re-working of some of the ICEL chants that avoid a fair number of awkward problems when trying to adopt the Gregorian melodies to English texts.

    For me, "chant-based" means that music which is built upon the characteristics of chant: vocal, monophonic, unaccompanied, modal, liturgical (bound to the texts of the Mass) and rhythmically supple.

    I'm not sure which examples you find don't fall into this definition and thus merit labels such as "plainchant", "plainsong" or "faux-chant," but would be willing to discuss the examples you cite.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Ralph Bednarz
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    For the record David...you're frequently irrational...but not about the ICEL Gloria. :)

    And I would love clarification of the distinction between plainsong, plainchant and Gregorian chant as opposed to chant based, since those terms are used frequently on this forum and I sometimes get confused as to their application.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,698
    I actually really like the ICEL Gloria. You just have to drag a congregation through it and keep them excited by doing some intriguing accompaniment work. And yeah, it has to be accompanied.

    As far as THE RECTO TONO ORDINARIES are concerned, I've had them copyrighted and will file lawsuits against anyone who dares to sing the Ordinary recto-tono without paying me my royalties. And I'm way more expensive than GIA.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I agree, if the ICEL gloria is accompanied, it can be quite nice. Even unaccompanied, if you keep it moving, it can be done well.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    MJM is attempting to gain support for his spurious copyright claims, expanding here the heinous accusations he made against me on FaceBook regarding a recto-tono-style Alleluia I composed.

    Don't believe him! I attempted to calmly explain to him that I mailed a copy of the piece to myself from inside the sealed envelope I've been living in since 1982, and which I was attempting to generously contribute to his THE RECTO TONO PROPERS project. (Charity, amirite?)

    Before the Cease and Desist letters are made public, I wanted to post the piece here. But, because I don't want anyone ELSE stealing my copy-wrighted property, I am only posting the Jubilus here. The thematic material in the Jubilus alone is enough to prove that I composed the entire piece, which was in no way inspired by the vernacular Gloria posted earlier by SkirpR.

    (Note - this is for the 17th Sunday of Ordinary Time.)

    image
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    hahaha! You guys crack me up.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 903
    I've been working on a dodecaphonal Mass setting which I like to call "Mass of Confusion." Each tone represents one of the Apostles. It's very academic and heady and very unsingable. :)
    Thanked by 2SkirpR Jenny
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    It's very academic and heady and very unsingable.


    Good. That means we are allowed to take it seriously.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Andrew Motyka
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    If it's unsingable the modernist crowd at your parish should love it. :)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,209
    "Mass of Confusion" has several components. It ends with a "People moving out" chant, and begins with a "People moving in" chant.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The slurs and ties make me think of clouds in a blue sky over O-K-L-A-H-O-M-A, as high as an elephant's eye.
    "It's a brand new day, everything is fi-high-high-ine....."

    What do you want want, Nurse Ratchet?
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    Triple slurs and quadruple flats? Take all my money.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 903
    the sprechstime section of the credo is particularly impressive if I do say so myself.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    Somebody asked me if I could transpose it to a new key. I was hesitant at first, but now that I tried it out and sang it a few times, I think it still works.

    Again- here is only the Jubilus, as a sample.

    image
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,187
    Nice, but how many priests will recto-intone the Gloria on F only to have the pitch sag down to D?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,471
    I'm preparing a special Clergy edition that prints all the music a third higher than intended.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen elaine60 Jenny
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Given the clef, this appears to be the edition for countertenor clergy. (Which is a really weird concept, come to think of it!)
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,181
    HT Stravinsky

    We may now look forward to sacred works of major length.
  • Ralph BednarzRalph Bednarz
    Posts: 493
    Simplex, ICEL, or Meinrad's We sing them at a good clip, acapella. Most of all: rhythm of the text, rhythm of the neumes , and the mora vocis. This is our battle cry. A good rendering can even present a grammatical rythm too.
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
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