Searching for a term in contemporary music
  • I have seen used in criticism of contemporary classical music a term for the consensus that music should not follow Common Practice harmony but be written in the modernist, atonal vein. In a brilliant snapshot of contemporary composition, (then) Joseph Ratzinger divided most music between the kind of stuff, usually using traditional harmony, that you hear at large events, which he called the triumph of the banal, and academic music, which he describes as being so difficult perhaps only other people trained in it can understand it. I am searching for the term--or terms--that are used to describe the consensus that to be serious, a composer has to write in that inaccessible, academic way. Card. Ratzinger threw in an aside that composers might often feel trapped.

    What term am I fishing for?

    Kenneth
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I think academic music is quite appropriate, as many of those composing the kind of music I think you describe are entirely supported by or tied in closely with academia. (For the record, I don't at all disparage the music I think you are describing, but I don't think it's appropriate for sacred use. And also, as an aside, it is interesting to note that a lot of "new" "academic" music seems to me to be increasingly more tonal than it was 10-20 years ago.)
    Thanked by 1francis
  • As a description, I agree academic music is the best--see Joseph Ratzinger's comments about feeling trapped--and you are right about the trends. I heard a senior recital by a composition major that was a triumph, and there were melodies trying to get out, and he wrote a beautiful choral piece for the standard sized choir used in the 16th Century. There is also academic jazz, and I have a hard time distinguishing the two genres--one is an improvisational version of the other?

    But it is the actual decision or agreement that I am fishing for. Perhaps it is not in wide use, and, as always in academia, one person's personal little pet term that I ran across.

    Kenneth
  • Oh, and I got my first exposure to serious music when, as a 17-year-ol, I subscribed to the SFO when Ozawa was music director. Boy, do I know trends in mid-1970's composition backwards and forwards. I still like it, but I agree, it is the musical version of a lecture in the place of a homily.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    But it is the actual decision or agreement that I am fishing for.


    I honestly don't believe there is one. Musical periods tend not to get named for some time after they've finished - and frankly - I don't know if there's any consensus on what the wide open field that comes after the Romantic period is called, let alone what you describe.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Someone will need to augment my recollection of the five models/paradigms of worship music as articulated by Msgr. Francis Mannion. His scaffolding made sense-
    I-Authentic: would include Gregorian (and other historically valid) chant and classic Roman polyphony (Palestrina, Victoria, Lassus et al.)
    II- Utilitarian/Gebrauchsmusick (music serving a need): would include Rossini Propers and Gelineau Psalters in earlier eras, and some sources of contemporaneous composition. This form avoids any inclination to any excessive artistic exposition of texts. Sometimes artistic merit does invade this category with the works of composers like Proulx, Tom Savoy, Howard Hughes, Ralph Verdi et al.
    III- Artistic/Performance: Baroque/Viennese/Romantic large scale works; opera/oratorio masquerading as liturgically appropriate sacred music.
    IV-Populist: this would include hymnody, both native RC from any number of ethnic/national sources (various Psalters, Lambilotte, Faber et al), collected hymnals including various genre styles (St. Gregory/Pius X/St. Basil etc.), People's Mass Book, Worship, Our Parish Prays and Sings; and post V2 "indigenous" popular forms, from faux-folk, song forms in antiphonal style with more sophisticated melodic/harmonic structures and using grand staff accompaniments in addition to lead sheet nomenclature-common called the "sweet songs" or "sacropop" or "religious song."
    V- Eclectic: a model inwhich all of the prior four categories are employed either by relegating certain models or sub-models (folk v. traditional hymns) to certain Mass times, or employing different genres and models comprehensively within one Mass.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    the term--or terms--that are used to describe the consensus...


    idiotic

    elitist

    bloviating

    self-important
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,152
    So, let us consider:

    Bruckner's various motets, which, although mostly polyphonic, are decidedly NOT classical Roman polyphony. Where do they fit? Certainlhy not Authentic? Probably not Utilitarian (according to your definition)? Not Artistic/Performance, since they are liturgically appropriate. Absolutely, neither Populist nor Eclectic.

    What about Thomas Tallis and William Byrd and others of the English Renaissance, who wrote magnificent polyphony, but not truly in the style of classical Roman polyphony? Similar questions could be raised about French, Flemish, Spanish and other schools of period polyphony not being classical Roman polyphony. Perhaps the definition of Authentic needs to be altered?

    What about Kevin Allen's polyphony? Is it Authentic? Again, not classical Roman polyphony, and ... horrors!! ... it's 21st century!!

    What about Frank La Rocca? Edmund Najera? Richard Clark? Richard Rice? Frank Koerber? Morten Lauridsen? or, for that matter Charlie and Chuck?

    There's something wrong with this classification scheme and/or the paradigm it is supposed to represent.
  • Point, guys, I had a POINT.
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    i think the answer everyone is giving to your question is "i don't know"

    I would also be interested to know if there is such a term to describe the view-point of these idiotic, self-important bloviators. That way, when I describe why I hated the composition department at my School of Music, I can say something other than, "I wanted to write music that sounded like music, which apparently is a bad thing in some circles."
  • CHG has outlined just how absurd it is to try pigeon-holing or concretely defining liturgical music, modern or otherwise. One either knows it when one hears it or one doesn't. Certainly we (at least, many of us) would not want to be limited to chant, or 'Classical Roman' polyphony at the expense of 'other' polyphonies, certainly we would not want Mahler et al. to be disqualified, nor would we want to be told that Mozart or Monteverdi (or Stravinsky!) masses were inappropriate, and so on, ad infinitum. It is an exercise in futility and artistic imprisonment to attempt legislation or definitive requirements of sacred music of our time or any other. One just simply knows intuitively that there is music more appropriate to our liturgies than that being performed in a great many of our churches, but this intuitive recognition cannot be infallibly formulated in anything other than highly subjective language.

    And, to address the initial question: it doesn't seem to me that there is a single term that would describe the gamut of 'modern' classical music. As the writer observed, there are quite a few styles inspiring quite a few schools of modern classical music. We know, though, that a given composition is 'classical' in the broad sense, not because of its tonal vocabulary (or absence of such), its basis on tone rows, aleatoriness, post-romantic, etc., nature, but by recognising its literary quality and register, and the level of intellect that is engaged, the spiritual doors that are opened. But! I'm getting subjective, aren't I? If one needs a description to perceive why Britten is edifying and certain other stuff isn't, one will never comprehend why, or that it really is.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Adam, I don't think the responses you've offered have demonstrated a sufficient modicum of tact or insight towards those of us who've responded to Kenneth's difficult inquiry. It is difficult to discern, when you hurl "dirty bomb" asides borrowed from Bill O'Reilly in all directions, whether they are meant to inflict offense against those of us who did respond, or others, names unmentioned. In my case, who is the "idiotic bloviator," me or Msgr. Mannion. I certainly deserve that description more than he, but neither of us has earned the right to be associated with that description by inference. I don't personally give a hoot about my rep or cred amongst my peers here, but Msgr. Mannion has done a monumental service to the Church by not "bloviating" his view points, but rather by founding the best choir school west of the Mississippi for boys and girls at the Madeleine in Salt Lake many years ago.
    Were I you, I'd reconsider your own status as sage advisor, and then consider apologizing to "somebody," or whomever your language was meant to demean. Peace, young brother.

    Chuck, what I left out of Mannion's litany of models was that I personally challenged their premise to him in a two day breakout at NPM 1999 with examples quite similar to your own.
    But, as I mentioned, he was a cleric who A. cared; and B. put his money where his mouth was.

    And, finally- Kenneth, would the term "post-modern" suffice for you?
  • I think, melofluent, that he meant music school faculty.
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  • The thing is, in Msgr. Manions' taxonomy, academic music does not fit under "performance," because people can love performance. I remember, when Elliot Carter died, listening to something of his on YouTube and thinking, "Ah, 1974..." But academic music, in a normal parish, would sound as if you were being allowed to listen in to an important conversation you didn't understand, so it is not performance to my way of thinking.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    That, Kenneth, is in no way apparent in his two responses thus far. The reference to college faculty came late in the game. Happily, my collegiate compositional mentor was Dr. Frank LaRocca, mentioned above by Chuck, and a member of this forum.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Kenneth understood what I was saying...

    Music school faculty who insist that music written today which uses (so-called) Common Practice harmony, rather than 20th-Century harmonic language, is somehow deficient or immature... these people are elitist idiots and self-important bloviators.

    While this message board may (or may not) be frequented by people who share some of those general traits (I'm an elitist bloviator, for example, but not a self-important idiot), I wasn't actually talking about any of you (us).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    and really, though I was (trying to) make a joke, I thought it was pretty clear-

    Kenneth's suitable mind: What do you call the idea that music should sound awful?
    Adam's wooden humor: Stupid.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    My bad, then, Adam. Since you've had a spate of zen-like "sayings" that are quite brilliant, I must admit I was lost in the minimalist tracks you laid down here.
    Moving on, nothing to see here, folks. And Kenneth, I hope you find the word.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Lost.

    Chaos.

    Chance.

    Do you really want me to expand?
  • I would simply call it Postmodern. It only recognizes objectivity, that is, that which can be observed and studied. It does not take into account beauty.

    I suppose, on a strictly theoretical level, it makes sense. If music is organized sound and silence, then even atonality can be considered.

    On the other hand, If I mix together eggs, ice cream, and pickle juice, marinaded a steak in it, and burned it to ash, you could say I was organizing food like a culinary artist.

    But you sure wouldn't call it cooking.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,937
    Quite a bit of "academic" music seems written for academicians. Hardly anyone else wants to hear it. Music schools have been, unfortunately, dominated by these "composers" for years. I hope that changes.

    Marilyn vos Savant remarked a few years ago, that students enter music schools as princes, and leave as frogs.
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  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I'm sure everyone said the same kinds of things when florid organum began.
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • Actually, Adam, you cut and pasted the part you were reacting to. It's just the problem with discussion boards.
  • Actually, a highly skilled jazz bassist, who admittedly plays esoteric music that will never sell very well but which does have an appreciative audience, just blurted out Einstein on the Beach when we were talking about this very problem. A typical opera has 4-6 performances at a major house. Einstein has received 5 or 6 revivals, all funded by arts organizations. How many copies of a 4-LP set could have sold? And yet it is revered beyond words in critical circles.
  • That said, I still like some of that stuff and am quite comfortable listening to a lot of it.

    However, we have gotten well beyond what I was looking for.

    Cheers, Kenneth.
  • I recently went through everything on the lists of the Great American Song book, and listened to as much as I could of each composer, to get at why people who hate Broadway (such as me) love those songs, most of which were tunes in some kind of show. Jerome Kern even hated Jazz, which, fortunately for his heirs, does not deprive him of his place high the ranks of people who wrote jazz standards. What I concluded was exactly what Mr. Osborn said: convention, popularity, time, whatever.

    There IS a place where this music is popular: I was working with a youth group 10 years ago or so and was listening to a kids station, and behind the rap and heavy metal I heard the work of the producers and orchestrators. It was all contemporary "classical" stuff. They were, in essence, using their degrees to make money. Whether that stuff could be done in church is one of those questions.

    However, the young composer I metnioned wrote a fine choral piece that stands with Kevin Allen's. He is a fine young soul, deeply devout, and, for the long haul, wants to use the tools of sacred music to write something new. He has all the tools he needs, so, in his case, it is a matter of time and effort. The talent and the skill are not in question. He's a professional organist who plays the clarinet in an orchestra.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    There's plenty of good, contemporary music being in written, produced, and consumed- in all styles and genres, including the various shades and flavors of so-called "academic music" or "contemporary classical" music which use a wide variety of 20th-Century idioms. And of course there is a huge amount of commercial music which is of very high quality and uses classical or "academic" compositional technique- film music and (more and more) video game music.

    Any attempt to say that some particular style or genre of music, from florid counterpoint to Cagian aleatory, is [ dead / commercially unviable / not serious / not really music / the only thing that really matters / not worth pursuing / of little value / the most valuable / etc / etc ] is ridiculous. People who presume to the stature of guardians of musical culture, whether they promote pre-20th century "Classical" styles or post-Common-Practice modernism, are annoying little pedants. Musicians and musical organizations should, can, and do figure out how to make whatever music that they feel called to make, and all sorts of people will consume all sorts of music for all sorts of completely inscrutable reasons.

    (Perhaps not obviously: None of that has any bearing on my opinions regarding what sorts of music is or is not appropriate for liturgy. That rant was solely in regard to the notion - mentioned, but I assume not held, by Kenneth - that only certain kinds of academic music are worthwhile or are viable career paths.)
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  • The young composer I mentioned sent me a nocturne which has a lovely melody doing a lot more than just trying to get out-- it made a jail break and is running free.

    Nocturne for bassoon by John Henderson.

    https://exchange.cua.edu/owa/attachment.ashx?attach=1&id=RgAAAADSPJwM4LvUEZNmAFCL392xBwBv4LWlEWTUEZNEAFCL392xAAAA+65oAABa96rr8vmJTaM2nrJjYHnvAACMJfxnAAAJ&attid0=BAAAAAAA&attcnt=1