Where do the Psalm Verses come from in the Simple English Propers ?
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Friends,

    Does anybody know whence the PSALM VERSES in the Simple English Propers come ?

    For instance, take the INTROIT FROM PENTECOST

    It says "Psalm 68 (67)" but does not specify the verses.

    I would have guessed they might come from VERSUS PSALMORUM ET CANTICORUM (Solesmes, 1962), but they don't. If you compare the SEP verses given for the Pentecost Introit to what's found in VERSUS PSALMORUM ET CANTICORUM they don't match.

    Furthermore, the VERSUS PSALMORUM ET CANTICORUM does not have Offertory verses. Did SEP take these from Carl Ott's collection? I doubt this, because of the length.

    Can anyone help?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I thought that they used the GR's verse, then the verses following.
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  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Ben, does the GR have a Communion verse?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Ps 67: 2,4,5abc,5d-6,8,9,20,21,29,36
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  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    It lists them for every communion chant like chonak just posted.
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  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Folks, if you're serious about this, look at the Graduale. The Gregorian Missal is just for kids. :)
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  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Uh . . . the Graduale Romanum does not indicate EXTRA verses for the Introit: INTROIT

    . . . or am I wrong?
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    The 1974 Graduale does not indicate EXTRA verses for the Offertory: OFFERTORY

    . . . or am I wrong?
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    So, again: where do the Offertory verses come from in the SEP ?

    Is it Carl Ott's collection?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    They might have been taken from the offertorale. That's what I'm doing for FEP.

    There's also this.
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  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    re: introit

    My guess would be the one listed introit verse was used, then the other verses that follow it from the same psalm. Again, that's what I'm doing, at least.
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  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Another question, if I may:

    Does anybody know why VERSUS PSALMORUM ET CANTICORUM has different EXTRA Psalm verses than the 1974 Graduale?

    Or perhaps a better way to ask:

    Does anybody know why VERSUS PSALMORUM ET CANTICORUM has different EXTRA Psalm verses than the 1970 ORDO CANTUS MISSAE, which was the basis for the 1974 Graduale?

    (N.B. The 1970 Ordo Cantus Missae likewise indicates the EXTRA communion verses.)
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    From what I can tell, the SEP Offertory does not correspond to the verses given in Carl Ott's 1934 Offertoriale.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I should have written my commentary above in purple, but I couldn't figure it out quickly enough. :)

    I think Adam Barlett will have to answer these questions. He may have chosen them himself. I do know that the Vatican-rejected 1998 ICEL Sacramentary - for all its defects - did offer verse suggestions for all the Missal antiphons - usually congruous with the Graduale/OCM - but sometimes additional ones as well.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    My impression from looking at a few cases of the Introit is that the SEP takes further verses from the same psalm indicated in the Graduale.

    The Versus Psalmorum does that also, but specifies particular verses.

    Considering the simplicity of the SEP antiphons, it's not surprising that they often take less time to sing, so more psalm verses may be needed.
    Thanked by 2Paul_Onnonhoaraton Spriggo
  • Adam Bartlett
    Posts: 533
    The Introits begin with the verses given in the Graduale, and then add verses according to the rubrics for adding verses, namely "more verses from the same Psalm". The Offertories begin with the prescriptions of Ott, and add verses in the same manner. I believe that there are Offertories that aren't represented in Ott, and these followed the same conventions used for the Introit where this is the case. The Communions took the verse prescriptions straight from the Graduale Romanum.
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  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    From what I can tell, SEP uses the FIRST verse of Ott, and ignores the rest. (FOR THE OFFERTORY)

    according to the rubrics for adding verses, namely "more verses from the same Psalm"

    Thanks. Do I correctly understand, then, that the editor chooses those verses?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    What is the interest and origin of your inquiries, out of curiosity, JMO?
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Hi, Charles.

    I have been doing practice videos to help people learn SEP that Jeff Tucker used to post on Chant Cafe.

    But I always wondered where the extra verses came from. I noticed that not all are "chronological" (that's not the right word).
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  • Adam Bartlett
    Posts: 533
    "Thanks. Do I correctly understand, then, that the editor chooses those verses?"

    That's correct. This is what the documents prescribe. There is no authoritative approbation for which additional verses are to be sung.
    Thanked by 2melofluent Paul_Onnonhoaraton
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    sounds like a lot of work ! Because often verses are combined, other parts skipped, etc.

    I was not sure whether they were "lifted" from Divine Office.
  • Paul_OnnonhoaratonPaul_Onnonhoaraton
    Posts: 434
    Does anybody know why the ORDO CANTUS MISSAE did not follow VERSUS PSALMORUM ET CANTICORUM ?

    Was it found deficient in some way ?
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Does anybody know why the ORDO CANTUS MISSAE did not follow VERSUS PSALMORUM ET CANTICORUM ?

    Was it found deficient in some way ?


    I thought that sometimes it does... but I don't know, either. Just guessing, perhaps it has to do with the (anticipated) use of the Nova Vulgata?
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