Combining men's and womens' voices to sing Propers
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I've been asked to assist with the music for an EF Mass being offered at our parish at the request of the local Juventutem group. I'm very excited about it, and am working with several people to coordinate a schola from their membership to assist in the singing Propers so that I'm not doing it all as a solo cantor.

    They have limited members available to chant (only two or three women and I'm unclear as to how many men), and it has been suggested that the men and women combine to chant the Propers, rather than alternating between them (men on Introit, women on Offertory, etc.).

    While I understand that performance practice dictates that chant is intended for like voices rather than unison voices, and my initial reaction was to respond in keeping with this custom, is it never the less permissible to combine men's and women's voices in this manner?

    I don't wish to appear uncooperative with them, but I also don't want to make provisions where they're not permitted either by rubrics or liturgical legislation.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Musically speaking, alternating men's and women's voices would be better.... Unless, of course, your forces are so weak that the separate men's and women's groups would do a poor job. Let's be practical and think about what we're actually offering the Lord.

    Assuming you're singing from the loft - or any place outside the sanctuary, I don't believe there's a prohibition against this. (And if there is, there really shouldn't be - just my two cents.)
    Thanked by 1David Andrew
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I think the issue is the weakness of the individual forces . . . not enough confident men or women to do a split schola, which I perfectly understand.

    I don't want to make the better the enemy of the good, but I don't want to be handed a "yellow card" by one of the local TLM liturgical referees.

    Yes, we have them, and yes, they can be particularly smug and unpleasant.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    don't want to be handed a "yellow card" by one of the local TLM liturgical referees


    If it isn't this, it'll be something else.

    One of the most offensive things about the society in which I later found myself was its monstrous itch for changing people. It seemed to me a society made up of congenital missionaries, natural-born evangelists and propagandists, bent on re-shaping, re-forming and standardising people according to a pattern of their own devising—and what a pattern it was, good heavens! when one came to examine it. It seemed to me, in short, a society fundamentally and profoundly ill-bred [... T]he moment one wishes to change anybody, one becomes like the socialists, vegetarians, prohibitionists; and this [...] "is a terrible thing to think upon."
    -Albert Jay Nock, Memoirs of a Superfluous Man
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    David, when singing chant in English, I really don't have any concerns about two octave unison. If singing Latin propers, and you have the "horses," I'd alternate as well. But if they're not in choir and vested, I don't know why it would be "illicit."
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    You could always accompany them with one of these ....
    Historically-correct-non-yellow-card-chant accompaniment-instrument.jpg
    706 x 1100 - 314K
    Thanked by 6melofluent Adam Wood Salieri David Andrew CHGiffen IanW
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    There is certainly no prohibition to the scenario you mention, provided the singers chant outside the sanctuary.

    2-3 voices in one octave singing accompanied propers would likely present more problems than it would solve.

    Depending on your time restrictions, and the difficulty level of the particular propers, I might suggest singing the Introit and Communion as a big group really well, then dividing simplified versions of the other chants in octaves. You could have men sing the Offertory on a psalm tone, and assign the Alleluias (or Gradual and Alleluia) to women and men, taking turns.
    Been there, done that. It can work well.
    Thanked by 2Chrism [Deleted User]
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I've often wondered whether the "serpent" (the instrument in Paul_D's pic) was appropriate for liturgical use.

    Clearly, it is. As long as you're wearing the right vestment.

    And the right shoes.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood CHGiffen Salieri
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    @MaryAnn Carr Wilson:

    I think there will be 2-3 women and an equal number of men (including me serving as cantor). The chants will not be accompanied.

    I'm going to wait until our rehearsal and see how things hang together and make my decisions on the basis of how things sound.

    Thank you all for your help. And you, Paul_D.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
    .
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    ^^ Yes, they really should wear some type of uniform. It'd be easier to bob and weave through the crowd after Mass that way...

    I try to put my best positive spin on it and remember that apathy is usually not a problem at our EF parish.
    Thanked by 2Chrism MHI
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,424
    If we have snakes and serpents, could we have hurdy gurdies? (???)
    Thanked by 3IanW Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    It would seem logical, historically speaking, in convents, monasteries and orphanages, choirs chanted in octaves due to differing ages and ranges, depending the available talent pool.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 875
    A caution: If you implement it together at first, it will be difficult to separate it later.

    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    There are many ways you can do it.

    I often have the incipit sung by one person (usually ends up being me), then having the whole group sing the rest of the introit. Men sing the first part of the Psalm Verse, with women joining the second part. Then women sing the first part of the next psalm verse with the men joining the second part. Again both sing the antiphon together.

    Find whatever works best for you, but don't be afraid to try variations.

    I often make use of the upper and lower voices to symbolise the old "two or more gathered in the name of Jesus".
    Thanked by 1[Deleted User]
  • SamuelDorlaque
    Posts: 318
    We alternate between upper & lower voices at the full bars, with the full choir repeating the antiphon; or in the case of a tract, alternate voices at the full bars. At the Introit, we
    alternate the first time, male cantors intone psalm verse, at the * tenors/basses. The treble cantors intone Gloria, sopranos/altos join at "sicut erat," then full choir for repeat of the antiphon.
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