Bruce

Your students probably all know the theme to SpongeBob. Should students sing it at Mass because they "know" it? Of course not. Knowing a tune and its words isn't a sufficient standard.

So what would happen if you said, "I think the kids are up for singing different music. Let's challenge them a little." If teachers object to that, then ask why, as teachers, they object to challenging their students.

You could also survey the students. I bet you'd get some interesting responses.

I apologize in advance for the negativity. Is it just me or can NOTHING change without the full and proactive support of the priest? I mean let's examine the best Mass possible in one of these parishes: Following a grand organ prelude, the Introit is sung flawlessly in Latin, perhaps with alternatim. After the last repetition of the antiphon, an overamplified voice rings out "Good mooooorning everyone!" "Good morning, Father." "How about this weather today! I hope everyone made it here safely!" (muffled chuckles) "Before we begin liturgy today, we have a few announcements. Copies of NCR are available in the Narthex..." See the problem? I once went to a parish with a perfectly orthodox and musically supportive (but ignorant) priest - but the fact that he shouted the prayers in a VERY fast voice dulled the beauty of the music. One really needs a good priest - like that guy who did the ad orientem Requiem Mass ;) - to make good music works. My rubric is that if you don't even have the chanted collect, you might as well not even bother with having any music.

And liturgy's not even the half of it. So many posters here get nothing more than a wink for support from their priests who wouldn't dare tarnish their image over something like chant. I don't think we can make any progress except with a priest excellently trained and talented in liturgy and music.

I am in a parish that currently uses OCP for everything. I am familiar with the children's book that the OP is having to use, and, frankly, do not believe that it should ever be used in a liturgical setting, especially where children are concerned. LIturgically, it is very weak. OCP was called out because the clappy Gloria that was initially in the service section had to be moved since it wasn't even the actual prayer, but a bad paraphrase. The Agnus Dei is also not the prayer, but, another bad paraphrase. In fact, a lot of it is not conducive to teaching the faith to the kids. "Shine Jesus Shine" works for Protestants because all they have is the Word. With all due respect, a typical Protestant ecclesial community service consists of singing, reading a biblical passage, singing, a long sermon and then, more singing. The Church, on the other hand, has both the Word and the Sacrifice, something that songs like "Shine, Jesus Shine" don't take into account.

My pastor, although a very good and sincere priest, slavishly follows the OCP liturgical planner as though it were dogma. When I have tried to suggest more appropriate hymns (rather than have to endure some Carribean-laced song that makes the choir tap its feet), the choir director tells me that it has to come from the OCP guide. For me, this is a huge let-down. I used to plan the music for our diocesan liturgies and would never use OCP for English. Unfortunately, because we are on the Texas/Mexico border, we have to use OCP because it has a monopoly on the Spanish-language market. The music I chose reflected the particular Mass (whether it was for the bishop to take possession of his cathedral, a diaconate ordination, confirmation, the Chrism Mass or a special occasion) that was going to be celebrated. In fact, we would have Latin elements and the organ.

Now, even at that point, I refused to use the "liturgical planner" because it had no rhyme nor reeason to it. As I told my rector, planning music isn't necessarily rocket science. You go by the guidelines set forth by the Holy See and you look at the parameters set forth by the seasons. He agreed with me wholeheartedly.

We used the Worship III hymnal and we found some very solid hymns for the choir (which was composed of children) to use. Furthermore, much to the former music director's chagrin, my rector insisted that the kids learn chant. He was at a loss as to why we weren't singing O Come, O Come Emmanuel during Advent and directed that the kids learn this hymn. He also had them learn the Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin.

The big problem is the fact that the OP seems to be faced with a group that has bought into the whole OCP marketing ploy. The songs are mass-produced. Pope Benedict spoke rightly when he noted that "certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another." This certainly applies to the situation the OP is facing.

Now, what to do? While GIA also has its warts, the Worship III hymnal, if you can get one that hasn't been corrupted by the inclusive language translation, is a good starting point. Read what the Holy Father has written about sacred music in "The Spirit of the Liturgy" and "A New Song for the Lord." Share that with your school and tell them that these songs do not represent what is just and right for the Mass. Also, I would suggest reading the Chirograph on Sacred Music that the Servant of God Pope John Paul II wrote to mark the 100th anniversary of the encyclical that Pope St. Pius X wrote on sacred music. John Paul made a very telling observation, noting that he agreed with the late Pope Paul VI who said, in referring to sacred music, that "not everything was fit to cross the threshhold."

Now, what I did to help our diocesan superintendent was to give her the documents of the Church as far as music was concerned. I gave her the new USCCB document, but, I told her that it really didn't have much teeth to it. We talked a good bit and she told me that she was concerned about what was happening at our diocesan schools.

One case in point is the school run by the Salesians (my alma mater). They, too, have fallen under the trap of Protestant Praise and Worship Music and have incorporated same into the Mass, complete with drums, electric and bass guitars and keyboards. A couple of the priests dread celebrating Mass at the school becasue of the music. And yes, they also partake in liturgcial dance, which a priest friend of mine found most troubling. I wrote to the provincial and told her that these things were very worrisome to me, especially since Don Bosco stressed fidelity to Rome in all matters. This, in fact, is supposed to be the cornerstone of the Saleian way. I told her that if our founder had walked in on one of the Masses, he would have stopped it right away and met with the staff. Don Bosco never took liberties with the Mass. This is not how he founded the order.

The nuns wanted to plan the music for this year's Catholic Schools week Mass (and include litugical dancing). Based on the documents i gave the superintendent, she said no.

The other big problem is that most of the music conferences my diocese attends are sponsored by OCP. You are not going to get much in the way of authoritative Church teaching. What you will get are presentations by Bob Hurdand some of the SLJs about their music, but, nothing about what Pope Benedict has said in Sacramentum Caritatis and what Pope John Paul II and Pope St. Pius X have written on the subject. The conferences conclude with a jam session. Our choir went and were proud to have had their picture taken with Bob Hurd and Mary Reza.

Something else to note is that the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist found the music used at Youth Masses to be very problematic. They said this in the Lineamata, the working document on the Synod. It was the only kind of music that they called by name and genre. This is what got the response from Pope Benedict, who, also noted, in Sacramentum Caritatis, that the composition, form and lyrics needed to jibe with Church teaching.

Steve, I don't think that you would be opening up a Pandora's box regarding the 1940s hymnal. There is more sound catechesis in there than what OCP has shoveled onto unsuspecting parishes.

For example, what is wrong with teaching the kids, "Holy, Holy, Holy", "Come, Holy Ghost", "Holy God, We Praise Thy Name", "At that First Eucharist", "Hail Holy Queen Enthroned Above" and "Shepherd of Souls"? The hymns are easy to sing and are rich in theological and liturgical teaching. Even "I Received the Living God", "Draw Us in the Spirit's Tether" and "At the Name of Jesus" are sound and suitable, as well as "For all the Saints", "Ye Watches and Ye Holy Ones" and, especially during this month, "Lift High the Cross".

The same thing holds true for hymns dating back to the early centuries of the Church: O Come, O Come Emmanuel (9th century) and Attende Domine (10th century). Even the hymns written by St. Thomas Aquinas for the Eucharist are certainly worth teaching the kids. The phrases are simple enough to teach the children the basic kernel of our belief in the Real Presence.

What about getting the diocese involved? Surely someone somewhere has to have some sense and sensibility to help out and provide some semblance of guidance.

The hymns used in the 1940s are rich in sound theolgocial and liturgical teaching. They are far superior to the OCP kiddie songbook. Plus, the melodies and tunes are easy for anyone to sing. Case in point is "Eagles' Wings". The notes are complicated and are not meant for congregational singing. On the other hand, "Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence" is theologically and liturgically rich, having come from the Liturgy of St. James.

I suspect the other problem is that perhaps the folks planning the liturgies do not have any formation (or scant) in the liturgical theology of the Church (and I don't mean the Spirit of Vatican II; I mean what the documents actually say). The issue here is that along with the parents, the teachers are charged wtih instructing the children in the Church's Sensus Fidei. However, if neither of the adults have gotten it right, how are the children supposed to do that?

Furthermore, we are not supposed to be worshipping God based on trends and popular music. The Church has given us paramters. Shine Jesus Shine may work for Protestant youth, but, not for the sons and daughters of the Church.

I have a hard time telling Jesus to shine.

Thurifer:

We are all children of God, and it is only right to bring the simpler ones into full adulthood. "Children's music" is simply the apothecary of a Disney Church... forever living in a fantasy. Do we constantly teach our children to save all of their money to spend it on candy? That would be the death of their little lives! Give them meat!

Gavin:

(Here is a new text for that feast day to the tune of 'Camp Granada' [not to be sung at ANY liturgy])

Hello Mudda
Hello Fadda
Here we are on
Mountain Toppa!
Sure is comfy
Sure is cozy
And for sure, My God,
You have the brightest clothies! (pronounced clo-theez)

V.2

I see Moses
And Elijah
Lord, you're floating
so much high-uh!
Here on Tabor,
grant us favor
We'll build your tent and call it "Thirty-One Flavors!"

Gotta allide "31,"
Okay, so now it's irregular!

Someone help me. I couldn't find any of these at onelicense.net. *snicker*

PS-We are trying to get across the whole "there are not liberals and conservatives (in the American political sense) in the Church with regard to teachings" thing, but people are always quick to tar with a broad brush if they don't agree with you (or the Church, in this case...)

DA...

Find some really, really beautiful organ music...simple.

Play at least one piece during Mass.

Trust me. Kids are honest. They can smell bad music and adults trying to make them HAPPY WE ARE AT MASS, HO HO!

noel

I think Todd has the right approach here. We're not talking the Barney Song here, we're talking "OK kids, the readings are these. What would be a good substitute for our Entrance antiphon of X, which will set the right tone for our Mass?" Of course, I'm guessing that you may be in a position of such authority, and it sounds like you REALLY wouldn't want to hand over such a teaching task to the religion educators.

It seems to me, from what I've heard, that you have a parish full of 10,000 people who think they know A LOT more than they do. And that puts you in the difficult position of demonstrating to them that no, they really DON'T know enough about the Mass to select music without some sort of oversight.

"in our archdiocese, the catechesis of children (regarding liturgy and the general Catholic Faith) is extremely spotty. "

Do you not find the catechesis of the adults, specifically the teachers, religious ed teachers, DREs and de facto liturgists comparably, that is to say, extremely spotty?
I have never been in a parish that did not have catechists in (permanently, that is, having no interest to regularize,) irregular marriages, parochial school teachers who gave themselves the "weekend off" from Mass since they did it so much during the week, a DRE who was allowed to function as the children's "liturgist" who had never heard of the General Instruction, a music director who didn't know that Liturgy of the Hours was "liturgy" and ought to use prescribed texts (at least he knew generally, that liturgies had prescribed forms,) or some such.
Yes, the reason can be traced back to the priest/employer, the bishops, "Catholic" higher education ... but at a certain point these lay adults have to take responsibility as adults for their own education, realize that what they are doing matters, is important, is SIGNIFICANT, and that you can't "do it" on information you've "kinda picked up along the way," or heard, from somebody who had a handout, from someone who'd been to a discussion group, that'd listened to a guy, who'd read a book by.... some Catholic.
The decisions we make as musicians or liturgists are going to inform the , for want of a better word, performance of the Liturgy, which is going to inform the Faith of the Church... so they kind of matter.
And they can't be left to people who don't have the time, or the means, or the interest to be properly educated in the matter.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

"The application/interview/discernment/job acceptance process is as much about you interviewing the parish and its personnel as it is about them talking to you."

I want to take a minute to thank Todd for that comment and those following it. I'm in the process of applying at a church, and this echoes some of my concerns. I'm not sure where to go from here, but it helped a lot to read that.

I think that role of the DM is in support of the Pastor. If the Pastor is knowledgeable of the documents and has the interest and a plan, then his word is almost unquestionable. But we are hired to carry out the plan...and in the case of a Pastor who is unwilling or unable to do this, we must do any or all of this for him, the study, gaining of the knowledge and creating the plan....

We have autonomy within the rules. But if our interpretation of the rules differs from his, we must accept or leave. This is where his Partoral role covers us. He's The Church in town. Like it or leave it.

"But, more to the point, why are the teachers picking anything regarding the Masses? By what miracle of training in the field of elementary education have they been endowed with wisdom, knowledge or ability to make these choices?"

Thank you - My thoughts precisely! It is a problem I encounter all too often in parishes here: Self-appointed experts (who have never read a document about Sacred Music in their lives) controlling parish (and school and other) music programs.

Unfortunately, the state of affairs benedictgal describes is extremely common and is the sort of thing that leads many of the most devout Catholic parents to homeschool their children or, when financial feasible, found small, economically elite schools outside the parish/diocesan structure.

I can say quite confidently that the Catholic homeschooling parents I know have a drastically better background in the Church's liturgy than most Catholic school teachers in the lower grades. And it shows in the children I see in my parish treble choir: the homeschooled kids tend to be much more at ease in and have more respect for the liturgy. Most of them go to daily Mass, often including coming early to say family prayers or a rosary.

Umm, I just searched "clown Mass" on youtube and pulled up a bunch.

Could be please cool it on the provocations here? This forum has never had contention until very recently. The line of dispute here looks like a time warp that no one wants to revisit. It is not productive.

Well said. Thanks, Noel.
Mia

Yes indeed. And we have plenty of heretical/warm-and-fuzzy/pointless sermons to match post-conciliar music!

Although I WILL say that, on the contrary, music can have great formative power. Many on the NLM and such blogs love to pontificate on how a priest ought to hold his hands, claiming he must press them flat together rather than clasped. Regardless of how silly this is, most people regard it as a more noble posture. At my last church, I noticed that, while I was playing a Langlais piece for offertory, the priest folded his hands as such! And this past Sunday I subbed at a church where the priest gets maybe half of the words of the liturgy in. I must say though, after I chanted the psalm and alleluia a capella, he had a very much better demeanor! So there is SOME extent to which we can influence the priest's "ars celebrandi", but too often the music and priest feed eachother into this vicious circle of heteropraxy.