Choir loft singing is old fashion??

musicman923

Hello everyone,

I received an email from a parishioner that stated its really odd and archaic to hear the voices coming from behind us.

As many of you have read in the forum I posted before about the choir loft being used for singing for the first time in fifteen years. I have been very firm lately with singing from the loft. Majority of Holy Week later this week is being done from the loft!

I am pasting an article that was attached to the email the parishioner sent as well:

Seating for Musicians
Within the seating provided for the assembly, a special area needs to be set aside for the pastoral musicians or the choir. This seating should be positioned so that it is evident that the musicians and choir are part of the gathered community and assist both in their function of leading the assembly in song, highlighting parts of the liturgical celebration, and setting the tone for the liturgical action. (59) This directive, therefore, eliminates choir lofts or any other seating that separates the musicians and the choir from the rest of the assembly. BLS adds that leaders of song, especially cantors, should be easily seen and heard by members of the assembly and be able to focus attention on the liturgical action taking place at the altar, chair, ambo, font, etc. If the musicians and choir must be placed near the sanctuary because of the design of the church, they should not crowd or overshadow any others ministers in the sanctuary nor distract from liturgical action taking place there. (60)

(59) GIRM, no.312; BLS nos.88-90.
(60) BLS, nos. 89-90.

GIRM = General Instruction on the Roman Missal
BLS = USCCB Built of Living Stones: Art, Architecture, and Worship

The above excerpt is from: The Liturgical Environment: What the Documents Say
by Mark G. Boyer
Liturgical Press, Collegeville, MN (2004)

What I would like from fellow church musicians is reasoning for using the loft. Just yesterday the loft mics were put into the house sound system. So the whole congregation will hear it unlike the last time we tried it!!

Please help me out with good reasoning so when I send a respond email I have good sources.

I should also mention the church does have a location in the front off to the right of the sanctuary that has been used for the last 15 years when the loft wasn't being occupied! If looking at the location from the main church the choir would have to turn to their right to see the altar since they face the congregation when they sing!. There is a delay though (for me) when the choir sings from this location and I'm in the loft playing the pipe organ.

Thank You!

M. Jackson Osborn

If you have a decent (decent!) choir gallery that is in good repair, is clean, orderly, of comfortable proportions, and condusive to the prayerful participation of the choir and, if any, instruments, there is, then, no reason why it should not be used. There are some musical (though no liturgical) advantages to this arrangement: the choir raised and singing from behind the people in the nave is well placed for leadership of the congregation, insofar as the sound coming from above and behind is a recognised encourager of congregational singing. The bad part of choirs in such galleries, rather than 'in choir' in the chancel down front, is that they are not seen, and their discipline and demeanour are, consequently, seriously compromised. Though they are in a gallery, they should yet behave as if they were 'in choir' down front, but this rarely happens... not on the part of choristers, nor, even the choirmaster and organist. The effective aesthesis is that we are not, like the people, a part of the liturgy and therefore don't have to behave as though we were. We just concentrate on having our part ready to insert into the liturgy at the appropriate time. When our contribution is not required we can swig from our water bottles, read something, knit(?), whisper, get up and move about, and, and, and,... I've seen it all... Such people do not begin to constitute a REAL choir, and really shouldn't be allowed to pretend to be one. If, on the other hand, a choirmaster saw to it that his choir behaved exactly as they would were they 'in choir' down front in the chancel, one would have to commend him and his choir. I have observed very few Catholic choirs who have the remotest understanding of what a real church choir is, what its role is in the liturgy and the quality of music it offers, and in the life of the parish; that has that choral cohesiveness that makes of the choir a sort of organism that is the sum of the (super-dedicated and bonded) souls within it. For such, one has to look to the Anglicans for models worthy of emulation. If Thomas Aquinas had known about Anglican choral establishements he would, surely, have included them as one of the proofs of the existence of God.

mahrt

One must contrast an anthropocentric and a theocentric notion of liturgy. Only if the liturgy is focussed upon the congregation (anthropocentric), does it make sense to have the choir face the congregation. Rather, with a theocentric orientation, the choir in a loft is facing the same direction as the congregation. Because the loft is elevated, their sound carries better, and being behind the congregation, they support the singing of the congregation better.

This is an issue I have faced with my choir. On normal Sundays, when the congregation sings the ordinary, the choir sings from a position at the side of the nave, roughly the position of a transept, if there were one. They are visible to the congregation, if they want to look there, but do not present any distraction from the altar. Being visible, we have talked about wearing choir robes or another kind of vesture, but this has been a matter of some controversy, some claiming our link with the congregation is better when we dress like the congregation, and some disputing what the proper form of choir vesture is: "choir robes" look Protestant, monastic-looking robes are not right, because we are not monks; cassocks and surplices are too hot, albs are for altar servers, etc.

On feast days, when the choir sings a polyphonic ordinary, we sing in the loft. Members of the congregation report that we sound better from there; in singing a polyphonic ordinary, we might have been a bit more of a distraction, since the congregation is not singing and therefore prone to watch the choir if they were in the position at the edge of the nave. In the loft, I have observed the problem of choir members wanting to talk during the liturgy, and express my disapproval overtly. One choir member complains that we are not "close" enough to the liturgy for our sense of devotion, and another does not go to communion, saying that the extra trip up and down the stairs is a burden.

There is an element of "herding cats" in all of this.

MHI

.

Liam

Not all lofts are equal: in the sense of optimal acoustical placement of the choir. You have to test each circumstance (even down to the size of a congregation; if you have a big church, and a small congregation, and a less than ideal loft acoustic, putting the choir the loft can simply produce a hazy nimbus of sound that is sub-optimal, shall we say). But to my mind, the real issue is optimizing the acoustical placement of the choir.

CharlesW

I agree with, and often state, many of the good reasons above for staying in the loft. I have heard some mention the traditional nature of our worship, how we have strayed from Vatican II, etc. A few times, I have told the complainers that the seventies are over, and they are sounding like old seventies people who have never grown up - worship is not, and never was, all about you. Since some of the suggestions were out of step with the rest of the congregation, I have mentioned that the complainers might be happier elsewhere. With some folks, reasoned discourse is not possible.

ClemensRomanus

Did BLS ever receive recognitio? If not, it's just a set of guidelines, and your musical, economic, and theological reasons probably outweigh it.

Scott_W

Reading the GIRM, I don't see anything in that cited section that comes within a light year of implying "This directive, therefore, eliminates choir lofts or any other seating that separates the musicians and the choir from the rest of the assembly"

Blaise

M. Jackson Osborn,

What I am reading is that people may not act well if they are seated in the choir loft? Are we talking of a children's choir here? The choir I sing for acts normally in the choir loft, and it has been in the loft for at least as long as I have been at this parish. No discipline problems here.

WiesOrganista

BLS doesn't carry force of law. Never has, never will.

Does your Diocese have any guidelines/suggestions on this?

Hopefully they won't try to get the Fire Marshal to condemn the choir loft, seen that done.

Musicteacher56

We are currently ON the altar, to the right of the priest, but (Praise the Lord!) are building a new church with a loft, where I will gladly place the choir, returning to a more theocentric liturgy. I am still in the process of turning my parish around from one that is "entertainment" bound, to one who is worship bound.

Adam Wood

Choir loft singing is old fashioned...

...which is a good reason to do so.

Adam Wood

ON the altar, to the right of the priest

Must be a large one, then.

Gavin

"I received an email from a parishioner that stated its really odd and archaic to hear the voices coming from behind us."

Then delete the e-mail.

Andrew_Malton

Byzantines in my experience say "in" or "on the altar" when Latins would say "in the sanctuary", presumably because thusiasterion means both.

Like they say "write an icon" where we would probably say "paint" an icon :-).

Musicteacher56, are you a Byzantine?

Scott_W

Then delete the e-mail.

Ha!

But seriously, I wouldn't do that unless it was an unsigned rhetorical brickbat hurled by some anonymous wuss.

I'd marshal some good arguments and send them and cc the priest in charge.

Musicteacher56

Nope, altar is quite small, actually. When I direct my singers, I'm literally 1 foot from the chair. Definitely not my choice, that's for sure. And, I am RC.

JaredOstermann

"I received an email from a parishioner that stated its really odd and archaic to hear the voices coming from behind us."

I hope this person never sits in the front row at Mass! Then, all of the congregational singing would come from behind as well. But then, we are supposed to celebrate Mass in one gigantic inward-facing circle, that is only one person deep. As the Bible clearly states... [btw, there may be a useful response hiding under that snark]

But seriously, the lack of authority of BLS has surely been discussed here or elsewhere - I know I have seen discussions, but I can't remember any specific links. That would be very helpful to have on file, if anyone here knows some resources.

Just a personal anecdote: In my old diocese of Kansas City Kansas, two new churches were built in the last five years or so. One was on the rural edge of the diocese, in Wamego Kansas. One was in the richest part of growing Kansas City - Leawood. The priest at the rural church (completed after the rich church, btw) was told by some kind of archdiocesan building commission (apparently required to weigh in by the archbishop) that he must build in the round, and was not allowed to include a choir loft. He fought tooth and nail with the building commission thugs, and eventually the compromise was to have a rectangular church, but still no choir loft. The choir area is directly to the side of the sanctuary steps.
This strong-arm behavior is quite interesting, given that the new rich church built a choir loft!! I guess money talks...

But it just goes to show that more clarity is needed on the subject. There are still plenty of people running around - and even in positions of influence and authority - who are so ignorant as to believe that "Vatican II outlawed choir lofts". The sad thing about the above story is that the archbishop did the right thing by requiring oversight by a building committee. But unfortunately the intellectual and theological formation of the committee itself was deeply flawed.

hartleymartin

"It will also be fitting that singers while singing in church wear the ecclesiastical habit and surplice, and that they be hidden behind gratings when the choir is excessively open to the public gaze."

Tra la Sollectudini 14

The way that I have been reading church documents suggests that if there is an organ loft with provision for the choir to be present, then they should use this location, even if merely for the practical reason that they are closer to the organ and it makes it easier to co-ordinate the singing.

If a choir is located near the sanctuary, then there should be some sort of grating, or they should be located in an area (effectively a side-chapel) where they are obscured from view, but can be clearly heard.

Having an organ in the loft and then the choir down by the sanctuary is impractical to my mind. There are also advantages in that the choir loft usually makes for better sound projection. I've also heard it said that the choir should raise the minds and souls of the faithful towards heaven, emulating the choirs of angels praising God in heaven. The use of the loft is perhaps something of a slightly theatrical nod to this end.

gregp

I think there is also a practical aspect to making music in public: gestures, instructions, passing out materials, pointing to people, etc., which are at best distracting to a congregation. Singing in a choir loft permits these things to be done discreetly.

Scott_W

I think there is also a practical aspect to making music in public: gestures, instructions, passing out materials, pointing to people, etc., which are at best distracting to a congregation. Singing in a choir loft permits these things to be done discreetly.

Good point. Being in a loft allows the director to "call an audible" in a manner of speaking. If something unexpected happens or there was a miscommunication, wrong hymn number, etc. the director can pass an adjustment down the grape vine without causing a commotion.

Andrew Motyka

Scott W,

Agreed. For example, yesterday we had prepared Jeff O's beautiful harmonization of the Lord's Prayer to use at the Chrism Mass, and the Archbishop accidentally started singing it without waiting for a pitch from the organ.

About a third too low; had to call the whole thing off at the line.

redsox1

It's really nice when you have a choice of choir placement. While I was in Worcester, MA and led the renovations of the cathedral organs, we had two new organ consoles installed-one in the loft, the other in one of the transepts. The grand orgue is in the loft and there is a small organ down front that amounts to an orgue de choeur. The consoles control both organs. Since the cathedral seats well over a 1000, and the crowd size was (and I believe still is) drastically different for a diocesan liturgy vs. a parish Mass, it was ideal to be able to have the choir in either the transept or the loft. It was particularly effective to have the choir in the transept while praying the office. I think either placement is appropriate, taking into account all the variables listed above (acoustics, where the organ is located, etc.) I don't think it should become ideological.

musicman923

Redsox1,

I know the cathedral very well! I studied with Ian Watson, when he was there! I studied with him from 14-25. He taught me so much and the cathedral is different now with the new music director. Not in a bad way just different from Ian's style!

Ben

Scott_W - Agreed! That's one very helpful thing about being in the loft.

WJA

I have small children and could not in good conscience leave my long-suffering wife alone in the pew to manage them all by herself while I direct our schola. Singing from the choir loft lets me keep one or two of them with me. I have chanted many a proper with a one- or two-year old balanced on my hip!

And as a result, some of them knew the tunes to the Mass VIII Kyrie and Ave Verum Corpus before they knew how to talk.

Chris Garton-Zavesky

I have a few thoughts.

1) Mass is the worship of God. Any position of the choir which allows or requires them to face the congregation instead of God prevents them from fulfilling the job of any member of the congregation. Therefore, they can be, intelligently, in a choir loft, so that they (like the rest of the congregation) can face God to worship Him. They can also be in a quire, as if they were in a monastery church, for this is why this architectural feature developed. They would be at some remove from the congregation and focused on the action of the priest at the altar. Since the priest acts in persona Christi, and since the tabernacle is most reasonably placed on the high altar, being focused on the action of the priest is, by extension, being focused on Christ Himself.

2) Microphones are never necessary, because God doesn't need a hearing aid, and the prayers are directed to Him, not to the people. Arm-waving is similarly un-necessary, because congregations aren't idiots: what can't be done by musical cues in this regard is trying too hard to be about the congregation. If one sings a Gradual instead of a "Responsorial Psalm", cantors directing audience participation are - again - unnecessary. (Yes, "audience" is the right term here, since we've departed from any intelligent liturgical sense if we think congregations need to be prodded to participate.

3) If choir members can't behave themselves, are they properly participating at Mass, regardless of where they're located? The expression "actuosa participation".... see other rants on other threads. For my purpose here, simply note that if we are distracting others at Mass, we're not doing our jobs properly, because -- again -- we're making Mass about US, instead of about the worship of Almighty God.

4) Angel choirs lift our hearts to heaven. Human choirs should do the same thing.

5) If you (generically) have the misfortune to live in a parish at which St. Mary Magdalene should be your patron saint, (They have taken my Lord away, and I don't know where they have put him), you (generically) have larger problems than the placement of the choir, but the very fact that the tabernacle and the altar are separated by the relegation of Our Lord to the broom closet could serve as a discussion point on where to place the choir: if we're supposed to be worshipping God, couldn't we have Him not thus relegated, please?

6) For the churches in which the Blessed Sacrament is reposed in a safe chapel, placement of the choir should take care of itself.

dad29

The cited BLS document was written in the Weakland era. 'Nuff said.

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