Digital Organ Companies
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    The church I work for is looking into getting a digital organ. If anyone has experience with organs from these companies, could you provide your thoughts on them? In particular I want to know about reliability, sound and service.

    Allen
    Rodgers
    Ahlborn-Galanti (I can't find much on this company, so I'd really appreciate feedback on it)
    Johannus

    Thanks!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,822
    Get the Roland C-380

    I was involved as a consultant in the installation a C-330 last year, which is the same engine, and it blows away the Allen Rennaisance we have here.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,190
    You may be married to the idea of a digital instrument, but do consider a pipe organ, maybe from the Organ Clearing house or a nearby builder. Lots of instruments are out there besides new ones.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I found a nice pipe organ for sale and the pastor said to go ahead and look into it, but it sold two weeks after being listed. So, no, not married to the idea of a digital. I'd LOVE to have a pipe organ.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Keep your eyes open for churches in your area that are closing. Some of them don't even know to list that an organ is available.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    There is one that's closing that has an Allen. However, the church I work for has no organ right now since the one it had died. I don't think anyone wants to wait for a church to close!
  • I'll second KevininKentucky and MatthewJ's comment. Try to find a decent pipe organ coming out of the clearing house or church closing. Allen and Rodgers both have their good and bad qualities. I think it really boils down to the dealership you have in your area, and how proactive they are in making sure their instruments sound good. Usually the company dominating the certain area, tries it's best to continue that domination by making sure good instruments are installed. It doesn't always happen, as their are plenty of factors that are involved, mainly coming from how much a church will spend, i.e. speakers, amplification, etc....

    We are currently looking at pipe organs. We have an Allen that is ok, but nothing can compare to the real deal.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    On the actual comparison of Allen vs. Rodgers...
    My last two parishes had Allens. The first one very old, the second one about 20 years old. Both were meh, okay.
    My current church has a Rodgers - the first one I've ever played. I don't see a great deal of difference between it and the 20 year old Allen.
    The only real difference that bugs me is that the Allen had pull stops that actually pulled out where as this Rodgers has the light-up stops. I greatly prefer stops that actually pull out.

    I'd love a pipe organ, but will live with this for many years. We still don't have pews, after all... and fundraising for pews will take years and years.

    Unless anyone reading this right now would like to donate 400k for pews..
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    The Ahlborn-Galanti we have is not very great.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I understand that Allen is AMAZING at service. Rodgers instruments have always had terrible flutes, in my opinion.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Organs, both digital and pipe, can succeed or fail depending on the acoustics of the building. Any instrument in a bad building, will not live up to its potential.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    The building itself is nice for acoustics. The wall-to-wall carpeting is not.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    If I were to offer an opinion on brands, I would have to say the Allen is very well built, durable, and the service is generally good. I am not sure they are always the best sounding instruments.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    We have an Ahlborn portative we use only for overflow Masses in the hall at Easter. Decent sound system it's okay, but I'd get the Roland now if needed.
    We like Rodgers, but have always had superb service rep who's a friend. I favor our Rodgers over the relatively equal Allen version that was installed about the same time at our neighboring Presbyterian Church. We try to upkeep a 1928 Wurlitzer Theatre organ in the gallery, but it's a goner, really.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    I'm quite happy with my 7-year old Allen. Pipe was not even an option. There are many more Rodgers installations in this area and many organists have been pleasantly surprised with the quality of the Allen. I suppose when it comes to technology newer is generally better so a new installation from any digital organ company will generally outdo a 20 year old anything.

    If a real organ is possible in the distant future, perhaps a good strategy would be to get a newer digital that can serve as a temporary fix and then serve as a practice instrument later on. That can always backfire if the people are content with inferior instrument, but it might be possible to sell it as a temporary installation that needs to be replaced in a certain amount of time.
    Thanked by 1R J Stove
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    In regards to pull-out stops or light up ones, those are all options with a Rodgers (I worked at one parish with pull-out, and now, one with light up), FWIW. I've had 2 great experiences with Rodgers. Where I am now, we refurbished our pipes that had been sitting cold for over a decade, and did the hybrid install since we needed the new console anyways. The project was begun (and paid for) before I was hired, but I think it turned out very well.
  • mike_l
    Posts: 9
    I have found that the quality of the installation is the biggest factor in the success of any digital organ. I have
    Thanked by 1francis
  • mike_l
    Posts: 9
    Played identical organs installed by different companies. It's hard to believe I was playing the same model organ. The sound system (speakers and amps) makes all the difference. I do think the Allen and Rodgers instruments are of a higher quality than the Ahlborn Galanti. I have played several Galantis that seem to have quality issues with their consoles. While they sounded nice, the pedals where very noisy and I didn't care for the feel of the keyboards at all.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    I have had an Allen organ (two-manual plus full pedalboard) here at home, for practice, since approximately 2009. It has served me admirably, and I would happily recommend Allen instruments to anyone. Before owing the Allen I used to own a Johannus, which I found less satisfactory.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I didn't like the keyboard feel of the Ahlborn, either. The console layout was awkward. I felt like I was in a tall container trying to peer over. It had rocker stop switches, which were a genuine pain.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Any instrument in a bad building, will not live up to its potential."

    I used to think this is true, but I recently played a Walker (as in British pipe organ) in a dead room, and it was... beautiful. It just fit. Yes, I wanted some more reverb to cover up MY mistakes, but the sound of the organ was just glorious, even if it ended as soon as you released the keys.

    I recall now that I know some Aeolian-Skinner organs that sound AMAZING in dead rooms.

    So organs CAN be built to sound good in dead rooms, but this is usually not the case. It seems that usually the builder wants the room to make up for inferior voicing.

    To relate this to the post at hand, I would suggest one look at the work of the local representative even more than at his company's products.
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    Depending upon where you're located-have you considered Walker? Their digital technology is heads and shoulders above Allen and Rodgers. I think the Rodgers sounds more realistic. I have not heard much good about Johannus or Galanti.

    I agree you should contact Organ Clearing House, or a local organ builder, particularly a builder associated with APOBA (apoba.com). They can help relocate and install and organ from the clearing house, or find another used instrument that will fit your needs. Also, if you can get the church to look at this as a long-term investment and raise the additional funds, you could also build a modest new instrument with electric chest action and utilizing repurposed pipe work. There is a new Patrick Murphy and Associates instrument that followed this concept in the Pittsburgh area that from all accounts is extremely successful. Ask the questions. Keep all your options open.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I second the Walker recommendation. I played one of their fully digital organs once, and it was astonishing. And that was about 10 years ago - the other companies STILL haven't caught up!
  • I know Bob Walker personally and will attest to his great expertise as well. His organs are considerably more expensive, but well worth the price tag. Bob uses quality products in his builds. He is also very supportive of his instruments.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    I'm still not sure about funds available for the purchase of an organ. I know the church HAS funds for a very good one, but how much of their reserve the pastor wants to spend is unknown. He's just been in the background letting me search out options for now.

    I know for a fact that the president of the council is going to fight tooth and nail to keep from spending more than a couple of thousand dollars. Now, I know he doesn't have any deciding power and I also know the pastor isn't one to let councils decide things for him, but it does give an idea of the mindset of some people. Yes, that council member would rather have a cheap keyboard than a bottom-dollar digital, let alone a good one. This same council member also gave me his permission (haha!) to look for an organ after the old one died. If he knew you couldn't get one for pocket change, he'd probably never have said so. Of course, I tend to ignore him because I only take orders from the pastor.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Depending upon where you're located-have you considered Walker? Their digital technology is heads and shoulders above Allen and Rodgers. I think the Rodgers sounds more realistic. I have not heard much good about Johannus or Galanti.


    The church is in Illinois, somewhat south of Chicago and out in the country. I don't see a lot of information on Walker online.

    Johannus is decent for a home organ if you don't have a lot of money. I've had reservations about them for anything more. Same with Ahlborn-Galanti. I do like to check out all options though even if I think I won't like it.
  • I suppose I shouldn't mention De musica sacra et sacra liturgia (Instruction on Sacred Music and Sacred Liturgy), Sacred Congregation for Rites - September 3, 1958, which says:


    Chapter III-4. Musical instruments and bells.

    A. Some General principles.

    60. The following principles for the use of musical instruments in the sacred liturgy are to be recalled:

    a) Because of the nature, sanctity, and dignity of the sacred liturgy, the playing of any musical instrument should be as perfect as possible. It would be preferable to omit the use of instruments entirely (whether it be the organ only, or any other instrument), than to play them in a manner unbecoming their purpose. As a general rule it is better to do something well, however modest, than to attempt something more elaborate without the proper means.

    b) The difference between sacred, and secular music must be taken into consideration. Some musical instruments, such as the classic organ, are naturally appropriate for sacred music; others, such as string instruments which are played with a bow, are easily adapted to liturgical use. But there are some instruments which, by common estimation, are so associated with secular music that they are not at all adaptable for sacred use.

    c) Finally, only instruments which are personally played by a performer are to be used in the sacred liturgy, not those which are played mechanically or automatically.

    B. The classic organ and similar instruments.

    61. The principal musical instrument for solemn liturgical ceremonies of the Latin Church has been and remains the classic pipe organ.

    62. An organ destined for liturgical use, even if small, should be designed according to the norms of organ building, and be equipped with the type of pipes suitable for sacred use. Before it is to be used it should be properly blessed, and as a sacred object, receive proper care.

    63. Besides the classic organ, the harmonium or reed organ may also be used provided that its tonal quality, and volume are suitable for sacred use.

    64. As a substitute, the electronic organ may be tolerated temporarily for liturgical functions, if the means for obtaining even a small pipe organ are not available. In each case, however, the explicit permission of the local Ordinary is required. He, on his part, should consult the diocesan commission on sacred music, and others trained in this field, who can make suggestions for rendering such an instrument more suitable for sacred use.

    65. The musicians who play the instruments mentioned in paragraphs 61-64 should be sufficiently skilled in their art so that they can accompany the sacred chant or any other music, and can also play alone with appropriate skill. Indeed, since it is also often necessary to be able to improvise music suited to the various phases of the liturgical action, they should possess sufficient knowledge of, and capability in the techniques of organ playing , and of sacred music.

    Organists should religiously care for the instruments entrusted to them. Whenever they are seated at the organ during sacred functions, organists should be conscious of the active part they are taking in glorifying God, and edifying the faithful.

    66. The organ playing, whether during liturgical functions or private devotions, should be carefully adapted to the liturgical season and feast day, to the nature of the rites and exercises themselves, and to their various parts.

    67. The organ should be located in a suitable place near the main altar, unless ancient custom or a special reason approved by the local Ordinary demand otherwise; but the location should be such that the singers or musicians occupying a raised platform are not conspicuous to the congregation in the main body of the church.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Since when is the tonal quality of a harmonium suited for sacred use???
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Proposition 1: Accordions may be used in liturgy because they are, essentially, reed organs.

    Proposition 2: Reed organs may not be used in liturgy because they are too much like accordions.
    Thanked by 2Gavin ParleyDee
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    TCJ,

    You would have to contact Walker directly in PA and see if they have someone in the field near Chicago. In terms of Rodgers, you might contact Triune Music. They did a fine hybrid installation in Wheaton at St. Michael's. I was very pleasantly surprised with the result. They obviously know what they are doing.
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    We are planning on getting a Rodgers Infinity 484 coupled with a 42-rank '82 Wicks from a church that decided to go all P&W.
    Local Rodgers rep is a long-time personal friend, former organ teacher, and mentor of mine who will personally oversee the voicing.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Gavin, I think the harmonium was common in 19th century France for smaller masses. Granted, they didn't sound like the parlor instruments in the U.S. They had to sound better than a Hammond.
  • @jpal Congrats on that 484!!! Very nice looking and especially with the 42 ranks, even better :)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen jpal
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    jpal, congratulations. Looks nice.
    Thanked by 1jpal
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    They had to sound better than a Hammond.


    So does my homemade kazoo.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    As does my comb and folded paper!
    Also, newsflash! CBS will introduce the world to the Ukelele Orchestra of Great Britain tomorrow morning. I don't know if the Red Haired Priest's music will be involved, but I'll be watching! I'm feeling itchy to do an all uke Mass once the price (500$) of an electric bass uke comes down!
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,190
    If you have heard a harmonium in some of the churches of Paris, they sound remarkably good. Do not judge what you have not experienced. The harmonium was seen as a capable accompaniment instrument. In central Ky it was used as the acc. for choirs in some of the small churches until they afford a pipe organ.
  • I'd put a decent sized Mustel Harmonium up against a Moller Artiste any day.

    And to answer your question, Gavin, since September 3, 1958 when the document was approved by the Sacred Congregation For Rites.

    image.jpg
    2592 x 1936 - 1M
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    The French harmoniums were fairly respectable instruments. Not so, for some made in this country, although some brands were good. I heard a restored Mason & Hamlin that sounded pretty good.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    TCJ,

    You would have to contact Walker directly in PA and see if they have someone in the field near Chicago. In terms of Rodgers, you might contact Triune Music. They did a fine hybrid installation in Wheaton at St. Michael's. I was very pleasantly surprised with the result. They obviously know what they are doing.


    I already have contacted Triune Music. I haven't gone past the initial stage of inquiries yet though.

    I'm assuming that Walker probably has someone near Chicago (who wouldn't?) but assuming isn't exactly the best practice either. I'm curious to hear what sort of prices they'd have.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I had an educational experience playing a Cavaille-Coll choir organ in Paris. From the console, the reeds sounded just like a harmonium, squawky and discordant. Then I went into the church.... it's not the same as the reeds on the Grand Orgue, but... VERY nice!!
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    Germany was another country where, now and then during the early 20th century, respectable-sounding harmoniums had liturgical functions. Karg-Elert wrote a good deal for them.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    I'd take a 3-manual M&H concert reed organ with a 32-ft in the pedal over the 1958 Schantz POS I'm dealing with right now, any day.
  • It's for sale, David :)
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    Gavin,

    I walked into St. Sulpice one Sunday after one of the early Masses, having arrived very early to walk around and pray before the principal Mass. The organist (one of the assistants) was playing the Durufle Soisson Fugue from the orgue de choeur. I was amazed at all the sound that came from that little instrument. It was quite impressive.
    Thanked by 2R J Stove kevinf
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    David,

    I'd take that '58 Schantz over a '72 Moller! That was pure torture for three years!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,822
    We used to call them impacted moellers in college
  • TCJ
    Posts: 986
    Oh well. After being sent on a wild goose chase, someone decided to repair the 50+ year-old excuse for an organ and then tell me about it later. Since it's "working" the church thinks it will do -- until it dies again. I can see this process repeating for another sixty years.

    Sometimes I want to get into a line of work that's more satisfying... like flipping burgers or something.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,822
    TCJ... lol

    flipping lids is more fun, although it can be trying at times.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    TCJ, what you need is smoke rising from the console during Sunday mass. That is convincing. Can you arrange that?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    CharlesW ... they might mistake smoke rising form the console as incense.