Name the related field - unfortunate slip in job description.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    "degree in music or related field"
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Window cleaning, janitorial supplies, paper towel monitor.... How specific do they want?
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    Wow, they want a person with a degree! Who do think they are?
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 468
    For a Church Music job? Depends on the job, but: Liturgy, Musicology, Theology, Music Education, Education (focus on Music), Music Theory, Jazz Studies, Arts Administration. I'm sure we could come up with others. Besides related, but truly different fields (e.g. theology), lots of people with degrees in music don't have a B.Mus. or a "B.A. in Music" and you don't want to reject people who have "B.A. in Musicology" etc.
    Thanked by 1MarkThompson
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Exactly, Kevin. They must be Episcopalians! ;-)
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Modern Dance
    Thanked by 2Andrew Motyka noel jones, aago
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Musical Theater? (Let's hope not.)
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood Ralph Bednarz noel jones, aago
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Musical Theater


    I have two degrees, actually- a BA in Music and a second BA in Theatre.

    Oh, so like Musical Theater?

    image
    Thanked by 2ryand noel jones, aago
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Qualified according to the requirement?

    B.A. Music & LL.M. - yes (although practicing law for a living)
    A.B. & D.Phil. (Oxon.) Classics- no
    H.S. Diploma - no
    B.A. & M.A. Elementary Education - no
    B.S. & M.D. - no
    B.A. Sociology - no
    D.D.S. - no
    B.Sc. & D.Sc. Electrical Engineering - no
    B.A. Mathematics & Ph.D. Pure Mathematics - no
    B.A. & Ph.D. Economics - no

    It would seem that there are a lot of us out there that have no business serving in church music positions. How on earth could a lawyer, a professor of classics, a mere high school graduate, an elementary school teacher, a physician, a sociologist, a dentist, an electrical engineer, a pure mathematician, or an economist possibly be qualified? Horrors!
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood tomboysuze
  • RPBurke
    Posts: 25
    Then there was the parish in South Bend, during my Notre Dame days, that advertised for someone with a degree in "music, liturgy, or a related field." HA! For sure those two degrees aren't related even to each other!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    You mean an economist can't be a church musician?

    Someone tell Jeff Tucker!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    But can a church musician be an economist?
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    Hmmm
    Thanked by 2irishtenor bonniebede
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    You mean an economist can't be a church musician?

    I had in mind a professor of economics at a well known university who has also served as a Director of Music at a large Roman Catholic church. When he was a graduate student, he (an accomplished tenor) and his wife (an alto) sang in my choir.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    How about a candidate that has studied all the church docs on sacred music and actually tries to follow them? That would be novel!
    Thanked by 2Jenny CHGiffen
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    @Francis, novel is an understatement! But I have a priest friend who hired someone like that but had a degree (Masters) in vocal pedagogy. She is fabulous.

    Its not always about degrees.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I'm really leery of the idea that "It's not always about degrees." - with no disrespect at all intended towards Kevin.

    We need PROFESSIONAL musicians. Would you hire a school principal who had no relevant degree, but had done a lot of study of various educational documents and had privately studied educational philosophies and had perhaps sat in on principals meetings to observe?

    I'm not saying the director of music degree must always be an organ degree or the like - but there definately needs to be RELEVENT training with other areas made up for. For instance, the candidate holds a BA in theology, having done a concentration in liturgy, and has privately studied organ and choral conducting ... or the candidate holds a BM in voice, with organ as a second instrument ...

    My degree is actually in philosophy - but - I studied as much organ and voice in college as a major was required to and I'm about to begin an MM program in organ; alongside this, I've went out of my way to study liturgy at professional institutes and the like whenever possible.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    PGA

    A degree is always a good thing to have.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    Absolutely; it is a good thing. And I agree. But my friend's combination of good study and a vocal degree worked really well.

    And for the record, I have 3 degrees in music and theology.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have a music degree, but it is not an end-all and be-all where church music is concerned. I have known musicians who studied privately, or even with college faculty as non-music degree students, who did quite well in church music. The love for the field and a passion for quality are essential, but it can be done. One can study and learn methods, but talent isn't learned, only improved on.
    Thanked by 3francis CHGiffen bonniebede
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    I have known musicians who studied privately, or even with college faculty as non-music degree students, who did quite well in church music. The love for the field and a passion for quality are essential ...
    My point exactly:

    Fifty-five years ago, as a graduating senior in high school, I considered the pros and cons of pursuing a "classical/sacred" music career, fully aware of the way the cards were stacked against one in my shoes and of the fact that a promising academic career in mathematics was a viable and attractive alternative. Given my passion for music, it was impossible to abandon some sort of music studies, even though they were not in pursuit of any degree in music. Over the ensuing years, I have been fortunate enough to have personal musical interaction with the likes of Leland B. Sateren, Gunnar Johansen, Antal Dorati, Russell J. Paxton, Harry Peters, Robert Shaw, Roger Sessions, Milton Babbitt, Julian Bream, Nan Merriman, Robert Casadesus, Carl Weinrich, Robert Simpson, Paul Hill, Margaret Hillis, Peter Phillips, Charles C. Bradley, Yvaine Duisit, Sally Sanford, Paul M. Walker and Thomas Dahle. There are countless others whom I have worked with or benefited from through indirect contact and collaboration, including several CMAA members.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Does hiring someone with a degree suggest to you they will be helpful? To be honest, at the moment when I hear someone is a professional church musician (in my country) my heart usually sinks, as it means they will have been drinking the modernist liturgical Kool-aid dished out in lieu of sound training.Much rather have an amateur who truly loves the liturgy and the church's teaching on it.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Over here, I wouldn't associate holding a degree with liturgical modernism. Not a music degree, at least, and especially not in the state schools, where there's usually no instruction in liturgical concerns, except as a matter of music history.

    A liturgy degree, on the other hand, might be another matter.
  • Ally
    Posts: 227
    It really depends where and when that liturgy degree is from! I certainly hope you don't paint all of us with that same brush.( Which is why, i presume, you say "might") A degree from the Liturgical Institute, for example, is very different than from a lot of other places...
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    I always view having a music degree as a *good* thing, b/c if someone studied music in college, then they have studied theory, music history, etc, and how can you actually study all of that and NOT have an appreciation for "good music?" Having studied music on a professional level gives you the basis in theory to distinguish what is "tripe!"
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    This is not a problem unique to church music. Degrees are only proxies for knowledge and experience. The map is not the territory.

    With the exception of a small handful of fields (medicine is the only one that really comes to mind) all job descriptions should be changed to read:

    We have an opening for the position of: Something something.

    This person will be responsible for the doing some things, and some other things, and so forth.

    For information about our organization, including our philosophy, culture, expectations, work environment, and history, Google us.

    The following skill-sets are required: A, B, C...
    Demonstrated expertise in the following areas is required: D, E, F...

    Work experience, earned degrees, certificates, or independent study in one or more of the following fields is highly desired: X, Y, Z...

    Along with your resume, please include a letter which describes how your knowledge and experience makes you the right candidate for this position. Please include copies of, or links to, any relevant examples of your work.

    Compensation: We will attempt to pay you as little as is required in order to secure your services. You will attempt to force us to pay you as much as possible. The resulting compromise between our desire to pay $0 and your desire to earn $infinity will be considered "fair market compensation."
    Thanked by 2SkirpR Ally
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,048
    "Would you hire a school principal who had no relevant degree, but had done a lot of study of various educational documents..." If you believed (as some do) that the field of professional public education as practiced in the US was totally muddleheaded, ineffective and dehumanizing, you might well do so.

    What Adam said. We don't want "degreeism". What matters in our field is: can you make music? That said, the chances of all Ts being crossed with somebody degreed are better than with somebody not degreed. For example, one could imagine an incredibly gifted natural musician who didn't have a clue about musica ficta and thought that "the score is the text" on any edition of polyphony, no matter how overedited or unedited. This would not produce optimum results.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Much of what we do is likely only noticed by other musicians. I have never believed congregations, as a rule, even catch some of the finer points of making music. To many, it is background noise.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    And only rarely does an actual musician do the hiring process!
    Thanked by 2Gavin CharlesW
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    Having just finished a stint as a consultant for a three parishes hiring a musician, it is truly a rarity. But in all three cases, I was very happy with the results. I think we have much rejoicing in the years to come if these three folks are an indication.

    Brick by brick.....
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,696
    My degree is in philosophy. At the time, I thought I would become a professor of philosophy.

    Now I work in church music.

    If I had to do it all over again.. I'd still get the degree in philosophy.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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